ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH: EDWIN FINCH AND FRANCIS MCDERMOTT
CLASS OF 1970 MARCH 19, 2020
PRESENTED BY: UVA LAW SPECIAL COLLECTIONS
Randall Flaherty: Okay, so we'll just jump
in. This is March 19, 2020. And we are doing an oral history
interview for the Law Library May Days Oral History Project.
And I'm Randi Flaherty. I'm at the UVA [University of Virginia]
Law Library. And could each of you just introduce yourselves?
Just give us a face—your name and where you are right now.
Let's start with—we could start with Mr. Finch.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: This is Ed Finch. I'm elderly now, I
understand.
Frank McDermott: That happened about twelve years ago, Finch.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, well now I've just now found it out
[laughter]. So, I'm seventy-four years old, and what else did you
want, Randi? Where I am. I'm in Birmingham, Alabama.
Randall Flaherty: Great.
Frank McDermott: And I'm Frank McDermott. I'm seventy-six, I'm
in my office in Tyson's Corner Center. Virginia, sorry.
Randall Flaherty: Addie, do you just want to introduce yourself,
too?
Addie Patrick: Oh, yes, my name is Addie Patrick, and I'm a
fourth year at UVA and I'm currently in my apartment in
Charlottesville on social distancing quarantine.
Randall Flaherty: This is our first social distancing oral
history. So. Well, wonderful I—we're here to talk about,
obviously, May 1970. But I'd love just to start to hear how
each of you ended up at the UVA Law School. So, if you wouldn't
mind just giving us a quick intro to sort of where you grew
up and sort of your basic education and whatever steps
brought you to the UVA Law School.
Frank McDermott: Randi, do you want us to be serious, or can I
inject a little bit of my sick humor every now and then?
Randall Flaherty: Sick humor welcome. Anytime.
Frank McDermott: Okay, go ahead Ed, you go first.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Well, I was thinking the old guy 'ought to
go first [laughter]. So I'm gonna defer to you.
Frank McDermott: Alright, I—after graduating from Holy
Cross College in '65, I taught high school for two years, a
series of, well, Latin, English, French, and sociology, and then
began my applications to law school, and my joke was going to
be that Virginia was my safety school, but it wasn't. No,
Virginia is where I wanted to go. My two interests were
Virginia and Duke, and I got waitlisted at Duke, accepted at
Virginia, and ended up down there. My brother was there in
medical school, he was a year older than I and a year earlier
graduate from Holy Cross, but because of my two-year hiatus
teaching he was three years ahead. And he and I lived
together my first year and Finch would show up every now and
then. But that's it. I wanted UVA, outstanding law school and
family ties to Virginia, as well as to UVA itself with my
brother. [pause] Ed?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: That's your story, you're sticking to it,
huh?
Frank McDermott: That's as much as I can remember [laughs].
Edwin "Ed" Finch: So, Randi, and [Addie], and Meggan, I grew up
in Birmingham, Alabama, got into UVA undergraduate. I wanted to
go away from home, so to speak, to undergraduate, so I got lucky
and got in UVA undergraduate and had a great time there. In the
spring, I'm trying to decide whether to go to law school or
business school. I applied to several of both around the
country in Philadelphia, California, Cornell, I don't
know, several of them. And I got in and really didn't decide
until very late whether I wanted to go to business school or law
school, I basically flipped a coin and decided to go to law
school. And since I had had such a wonderful time at UVA
undergraduate, I decided that would be—it was a highly ranked
school and it would be great for me to stay there and go, so
that's how I got there.
Randall Flaherty: And how did you each decide to go to law
school? What was it about law school, that being a lawyer that
you wanted to do?
Frank McDermott: Go ahead Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I'm afraid I don't have a good answer to
that. I consulted my girlfriend at the time and—but basically
really I decided that if I went to business school I would be
limited to business, if I went to law school I could do either
over time. So, I chose law.
Frank McDermott: I just had had an abiding interest in going to
law school, and again with my brother in medical school it was
a nice fit. And the two years of my teaching were actually more
in the line of, [to] be candid, avoiding the Vietnam draft. And
that law school was not itself—it was a desire—I have
always been fulfilled by having an impact and I figured that law
school was, for me, the best way to create a path to having an
impact in a whole lot of areas: political, economic, and social.
And by that I mean socio-political, not play
social. And that's, that's why I went and I wanted to help people
out, but I wanted to have a real impact on a fairly broad scale.
And it has worked out, it has worked out very nicely.
Randall Flaherty: And then could you—what would—I guess I'm
curious about the culture of the Law School when you got there.
If you could sort of describe it. I mean, you know, the
culture of being a law student, but also like, you know, what
did people wear and what was the music like? I mean, just what
was the culture like?
Frank McDermott: Go ahead Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Well, it's a little hard to remember back,
but that was in the '70s, I guess the bell bottoms and all
that was going on. I think we had Woodstock in, what, '69? So
that was kind of the culture in the country, UVA was one of the
more conservative schools in the nation. And so there was not,
you know, as much of that but there were certainly some of
that in Charlottesville and in the Law School, but I think we
were just fairly classic, you know, university environment.
And in the times, the music was what you heard about and read
about and the dress and so on were the same and we just we
were—still some people, I guess, still wearing coats and ties,
which you—which had been a tradition at UVA, in
undergraduate anyway, forever and that was melting away, but
pretty much it was what you, what you knew about those times.
I don't think we were much different, except a little more
conservative.
Frank McDermott: And I do think, Ed, my recollection is that we,
at least that first year and probably much of the three
years, we wore coats and ties with pretty great frequency. And
in the environment there, I know Ed and I were in different small
sections. And being, he being at the front of the alphabet and I
in the second half, we had different large-section
professors. I know I had the dean of the law school for my
Contracts and that was a large-section class. And Ed, you
had what became later Supreme Court Justice [Antonin] Scalia
for your Contracts, I think.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I sure did.
Frank McDermott: And he became a friend to both of us, and very
much also was—we didn't have him until second year, he was not a
first year law class professor. But we—Charlie [H.] Whitebread
[II] was a tremendous presence and a tremendous influence. I
think he's no longer with us. But he was an awesome presence
and particularly, jumping ahead, during this these May Days. And
go ahead.
Randall Flaherty: I was just curious if you could—you said
you had him in class as a professor?
Frank McDermott: We both did in our second and or third year. I
know I had him in my third year, and I think I had him in my
second year. Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I think we did in the second year for Frank McDermott: Yes.
Criminal Law.
Randall Flaherty: He's one of those people that, you know, he
comes up all the time, but he still is kind of a mystery to
me, and he did pass away, I think 2008, but, so I'm curious.
What is—what was he—I know, we're straying a little bit, but
what was he like as a teacher? Can you describe him in class?
Frank McDermott: Go ahead Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: He was very bright, and very open and
accommodating. And I think, as I remember, early in the—oh gosh,
we also had him, you're right, Frank, third year for Trusts and
Estates, maybe? I think that's right.
Frank McDermott: Something for which I did a take home exam in
May.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes. So, I guess it's Trusts and Estates
I'm thinking about. He started the class with that he thought
the best idea for tax law, inheritance law, was to—for
everybody to be treated like it's a Monopoly game. Everybody
got $200 and you went—and you got $200 every time you went
around go, which was when you were one year old, two year old,
three on—and that nobody got anything else. You didn't—no
inheritance, nobody—you couldn't pass any [money], any wealth on
to anybody. And I thought that was a really interesting idea.
It was—we learned quickly somewhat tongue in cheek on his
part, but basically [McDermott laughs] he did, he did like to
just make it fun and enjoyable and just was as Frank said, a
wonderful influence and a good friend of ours, both of us.
Frank McDermott: Yes.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: We—I don't know we got to be friends with
him.
Frank McDermott: He was young, obviously, and very, very
engaging, very involved with law students whether they were in
his classes or not, and just a significant contributor to the
life in the law school. Okay.
Randall Flaherty: And in this time, even before May 1970, I
mean is the outside—did the outside world and what was going
on in 1969, 1970, did that enter into the law classroom? I mean,
were you talking about events in classes?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Frank McDermott: Well, Ed, let me say one thing and then you go
on. There was a big difference in our second semester, from our
first semester, and second semester was absolutely full of
all of the influences from things going around around the
world and around the country. Go ahead Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: So that's what I was gonna say, you talking
about our second semester of our third year, Frank, right?
Frank McDermott: Third year, yes, yes. Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I would say the—Frank's 100 percent,
right, of course it—the entire University got involved, as they
did everywhere. I mean, there were some dramatic events going
on, in that semester. They were, I think, all, most people
anyway, were glued to the newspapers, a little bit to the
television, but I remember reading the—trying to get the
Wall Street Journal and The New York Times every
day and reading everything I could read about it. It was
fascinating. I'm sure my grades were suffering as a result of my
fascination with the whole thing.
Randall Flaherty: And then, you know, the announcement of troops
going into Cambodia, but particularly the Kent State
news. Do you remember hearing that news? Where you were, or
how you felt?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I'll let Frank go first.
Frank McDermott: Well, let me go back a couple of steps. Ed and I
were studying in the lounge in the Law School in spring of our
first year, when one of our classmates came crashing through
the door to announce to us, and I forget whether it was the
assassination of Martin Luther King [Jr.] or the assassination
of [Robert F.] Bobby Kennedy, but we were doing an all nighter
and this fellow came in and announced one of those. So
it—we've had, we had some traumatic events, almost
throughout our law school career. Now, I'm having a senior
moment here. What was the question I was supposed to
answer?
Randall Flaherty: When you heard—do you remember hearing
about the news of the Kent State shootings? And do you remember
sort of where you were? How you felt?
Frank McDermott: I don't remember that moment. But I do
remember. Ed and I—for one thing, Ed and I were very close
starting in first year law school, we just did a lot of
things together and when—
Edwin "Ed" Finch: And didn't get caught [laughter].
Frank McDermott: Ed was much more adventurous than I was.
We—I don't remember—
Edwin "Ed" Finch: That makes me sound like the ringleader.
Frank McDermott: Yes. I do remember moments of other events
in my life that were significant but the moment of the Kent State
killings I didn't, I don't remember that. But I do remember
we were already in a very strained, anxious environment on
the Grounds. And then this thing happened and a bunch of us in
the law school, frankly, came together to try to help calm
things down and to help protect the property of the University.
And frankly, protect the students from the state police.
And that was sort of the origins of the marshals activity. And I
remember us being in one of the classrooms in the Law School as
we were being organized. And Randi, I mentioned to you there
was another person who was very active with us who I think was a
second-year student when we were third year, but she might have
been a first and her name was Arden Brannan and then she
married a classmate of ours, John [T.] Schell [III]. So she
became Arden Brannan Schell, but she was somebody who was very
involved with the organization and all the activities we went
about, as marshals. Go ahead, Ed, I'm sorry.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: No, I didn't say anything. You keep going
until you're through.
Frank McDermott: I've exhausted my memory. [laughs]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Okay. Well, um—
Randall Flaherty: Do you remember that early—that you're
talking about the people coming together right away? I mean, do
you—was there a—do you remember there being a specific meeting?
Frank McDermott: Yes. It was an organizational meeting that, I
mean, I think the effort was what I would call a grassroots
effort. And the leadership of it were just several of us who were
all very close and given, for example, Ed's background with
the University from his undergraduate days—somebody who
was one of the real leaders—and we just decided spontaneously
among us to gather. We gathered in that classroom, and it was
quite a few of us, and set about planning what we were going to
do and how we were going to do it, if I recall. Ed, do you
recall that?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Well, not—let me go back and start with the
beginning of that question. Randi, I clearly remember the
shooting at Kent State. I can see in my mind's eye today, the
film of it. And in fact, there's this picture of this woman in
distraught I think it became just sort of the shot heard
round the world a picture of her kind of crumbling in horror. And
it was—
Frank McDermott: And I do remember that too, Ed, but I
just don't remember when we first heard it but it was
probably pretty immediate.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Oh, yes, it was. Yes, I think it was that
night or that—even that afternoon after it happened. So
I'll go back and say a couple of things. One, I think I consider
my law school years an evolutionary period where I—okay
I came from a relatively conservative background and
undergraduate at UVA was fairly conservative experience. I was a
fraternity member and class officer, and etc, etc. And a
rugby player, for goodness sake. So I was one of the dumb guys of
the class. [McDermott laughs] And, and, but we—
Frank McDermott: Randi, if you don't know it, rugby specializes
in beating one about the head [laughs].
Randall Flaherty: Yes [laughs], that's about as much as I know.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: So, I really evolved, I think. My political
leanings changed. And I would not say I became radicalized in
any stretch of the imagination, people would laugh if I made
that claim. But Frank and I hung out with some pretty far-left
folks, we also hung out with some pretty conservative folks,
we were really sort of in the middle of kinds of folks. And I
was also at that time the, as I remember, the Law School
representative on the Student Council, which was interestingly
divided. And we had, in fact, a African American, who was the
president named [James] Jim Roebuck, who by the way did a
wonderful job during those times. And so I had felt some
responsibility to, you know, this—to do the things that
Frank's talking about as that position. And at that—I don't
remember the meeting that Frank remembers, quite frankly. But it
is—I think that was the environment—it was a polarized
environment. There were people who were very liberal in the Law
School. And there were people who were very conservative in
the Law School and a few of us trapped in the middle.
And so, in fact, I got—I wrote at least one, maybe two
editorials or letters to the editor of the Richmond
Times [Dispatch], fussing about the newspaper
talking about all the radicals at UVA, and I was—I viewed
myself as somebody in the middle and somebody who could see both
sides, somebody who deplored some of the things that were
going on, but some—and believed that students had the right of
freedom of speech and assembly, but they didn't have the right
to tear up things and cause mayhem, and so. I think I was
part of the founding of the marshals to try to calm the more
left leaning student body and control the conservative part of
the student body who wanted to go to war with the more leftists
and so we—Frank and I were just kind of caught in the middle, as
they say. And what we—that was our job, that's what we
undertook to do was to try to balance the interests that were
being displayed.
Randall Flaherty: What type of law student joined the marshals,
was it a diversity of perspectives, or was it people
who thought sort of in the middle of the road like you
guys?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I would say, a lot—a fair number of middle of
the road guys. I think they were people who didn't feel the need
to be demonstrating, but who felt the need to protect those
who were. So I think that was kind of—but the kind of the
general tenor, although there were some people that were again
I would I would say more liberal that were certainly marshals and
some perhaps that were even more conservative that were marshals.
I wouldn't ascribe too much of a political bent to it. Frank,
what about you?
Frank McDermott: No, I was gonna say, [clears throat] excuse me,
earlier that there was a significant difference between
the left-leaning elements of law students versus the
undergraduate and other students on the Grounds. And the Law
School was, I mean, those who—we had some very good friends who
were more to the left of us. And they were responsible people and
weren't tearing down flags or destroying property or anything
like that. And for the most part, their approach to it was
just like ours. A responsible approach and let's protect the
school and let's protect these students from what might happen
if they get too far out of line. And that was a strong
motivation.
Randall Flaherty: And this early meeting, I think you're the only
person we've talked to who can really recall it [laughs]. Can
you describe it any more? I mean, I was curious. What was
the—what was the vibe like? Was it tense? Was it collaborative?
What was it like?
Frank McDermott: All of the above. It was certainly
collaborative. It was organizational. It was again,
figuring out plans and plans of action and that we were
certainly living and breathing in a very anxious time. And it's
that anxiety frankly, that probably brought us together
from the perspectives that Ed and I just described. And the
classroom was, eh, Ed will laugh at this. I remember Arden there
in her jeans, which was not a commonplace thing to see in the
Law School at that time, I don't recall it being, and she was one
of the few women in the meeting, most of the people were male.
And—but again, it was very collaborative with a lot of
concern and a lot of sensed need to get out there and try to keep
a lid on things from every direction.
Randall Flaherty: And do you remember some of the plans that
you guys made in that initial meeting for—what were the plans
of action?
Frank McDermott: Honestly, I don't. I know that we allocated
particular physical locations to some of us. And I don't remember
and Ed I don't know whether you do, at what point we reserved
that room at the—on the top corner of the Downtowner. And I
think that was primarily Ed's move. I don't even know whether
that was discussed in that meeting, but it could well have
been. But it was Ed's idea. And we operated out of that room as
a headquarters base and Ed had one of the walkie-talkies that
helped direct people to hotspots to alert people to movements of
the state troopers and movements of the students. But again, it
was organizational and planning and allocation of strengths in a
way that we thought would best help the overall situation.
Randall Flaherty: So, interesting, so [Finch starts]
sorry.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I was gonna say, I'm—as I've said, I really
don't remember that meeting. I really don't remember, exactly,
but somehow I was in touch with the administration, which was
how I got a walkie-talkie and was granted the request for the
University to provide me with the room and the access to the
roof of the—of that motel down there at the intersection—
Frank McDermott: The Downtowner.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: The Downtowner, yes. And I remember
reporting to somebody in administration, but I couldn't
tell you who it was. I got a nice letter from Dr. [President
Edgar F.] Shannon [Jr.] at the end, but I can't remember who my
primary contact was. I don't—I'm sure it wasn't Dr. Shannon. I
don't know who it was.
Randall Flaherty: So, do you mean the Law School
administration or the UVA administration?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: UVA.
Randall Flaherty: Oh, wow. And so they—so you did get
walkie-talkies, pretty quickly, it sounds like.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, we did. And I don't remember who else
had them, as I say I remember using it to talk to the
administration, we must have been talking to some of the
marshals.
Frank McDermott: You definitely were, Ed. I remember that.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: And—well, that's what I got. That's all I
can say. And I don't remember how that took place.
Randall Flaherty: And then the first thing that happened just,
you know, as we've been researching and reading—I mean,
Maury Hall seems to be—there were two occupations, and that
seems to be one of the first things that happened. Did you
guys go there at all?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I know that I went there.
Frank McDermott: [Laughs] You've got to tell them the story of
the stone wall on University Avenue.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Look, I'm gonna let you tell it, because I
don't—which do you mean?
Frank McDermott: Your escape from the advancing troopers,
yes. [laughs]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Well, I think that comes later in the story.
Not quite there. But I will tell it but, at Maury Hall—yes, I
went there and I can't remember. I remember being anguished that
I was having a really hard time bridging the gap between some
very...
Frank McDermott: Hostile.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Hostile and, well, people on both sides. And
you know, I remember getting fussed at by both sides. Randi,
during the whole process, I received a few death threats for
what I was doing.
Frank McDermott: From the extremists. Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Oh, my goodness. So you had gone there
in the role of a marshal? Is that what you're saying?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I'm not even clear whether the marshals were
a formal entity then or whether I was just going there as the
Student Council representative from the Law School, and
therefore with some, quote, legal background, having some
feeling of that I should, I should help and stop what was
going on. And that I could help. But my legal reasoning didn't do
so well there. I remember that. Neither side cared much to
listen to my recitation of the Constitution.
Frank McDermott: Ed I think, I think you went there in both
capacities because that—the occupation of Maury Hall was far
enough into this whole series of episodes that I think the
marshals would already have been established, but again, I'm
speculating.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I think that's possible. I do.
Randall Flaherty: I think there were two occupations and I think
the first one was the sort of the wee hours of morning of the
fifth which I think it could have been before the marshals
were started. So it makes sense if you went as a Student Council
representative, possibly. Could you just describe, Mr. Finch,
could you just describe that a little bit more sort of what it
was like being down there, these conversations that you had?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Randi, I really can't give you much in
the way of detail except I remember feeling very
outnumbered and very much in the middle and very much
ineffective. You know, there's just nobody wanted to, on either
side, wanted to hear about a middle ground. You know, that
people were entitled to protest, were entitled to free speech,
were entitled to freedom of assembly, but were not entitled
to tear things up and be obstructive and so on and it
just didn't—and I don't think there were a lot of people in
the middle at that time, at that point, at that place.
Randall Flaherty: And so do you remember some of your first
actions as marshals, or some of the most memorable?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I don't re—yes, I guess I do remember
one particular, a couple of 'em maybe. You know about the event
at U[niversity] Hall with [William M.] Kunstler, [Jerry
C.] Rubin and Kunstler, when they spoke, so I was there. And
when they—when it was clear that as it broke up that the mission
was to go destroy the president's house. I guess I got
on a phone and called—I was involved in fraternities and
student government and so on. So I had friends in the fraternity
houses, you know, that were younger than I was. And I called
several fraternity houses and told them to turn out all the
fraternities and take them and get everybody down to Shannon's
house and surround it. I think some other folks did likewise.
And, and fortunately, I think we got a good cadre of people to
stand between the mob, at that time they were inflamed, and the
house and I don't know if there hadn't been people there I don't
know what really would have happened to that house. Kunstler
and Rubin did a great job of firing everybody up. I remember
that clearly.
Frank McDermott: Well, and Ed, I got it out of that article what
you're referring to—sounded like Kunstler was actually right on
the steps of President Shannon's house.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: He was, indeed. Yes.
Randall Flaherty: And what happened after he started
speaking, did it change the tone at all?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Kunstler? No, he was—no, he was, you know,
inciting everybody to riot and burn down the house.
Fortunately, there were some—a good number of fairly, some
fairly tough guys standing around there that said, you
know, come on. And nobody did.
Randall Flaherty: Do you feel like you had any training for
this? [Laughter] To be, I mean, was there any type of training?
[Finch and McDermott laugh]
Frank McDermott: Finch was a rabble rouser, he was well
trained. [laughs]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Wait a minute, I'm trying to portray myself as
non-rabble rousing. [McDermott laughs] Ah, training, gosh, I
played—all I can say is I played a lot of sports and was involved
in student government and—
Frank McDermott: Leadership.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: For all my younger time and I don't know
whether that trained me or prepared me or not, maybe it
did. Frank was as well.
Frank McDermott: Yes, I was applying all of my training as a
teacher. Hah! [laughter]
Randall Flaherty: But I mean how did [McDermott starts] the
marshal know what to—sorry.
Frank McDermott: Randi, the fair answer to that is, we both had,
Ed and I had similar backgrounds in that we both had played a lot
of different kinds of athletics and were pretty athletic, also
pretty short. But Ed was one hell of an athlete. More so than
I. But that background and our leadership activities throughout
high school and college certainly contributed to this
sense of responsibility and the need to protect, frankly, the
Grounds and the President and the and frankly, the students
who were organizing. That all comes out of many years of the
kinds of leadership activities we were involved in. No, there
was no formal training, but it was intuitive.
Randall Flaherty: And did you wear your armbands through all
this? Marshal armbands?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: You know, I wouldn't have remembered that if
you hadn't said it. But yes.
Frank McDermott: Yes.
Randall Flaherty: And did people take note of that?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Never got beat up, I never got beat up because
of it.
Frank McDermott: Just, just threatened. [laughs]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, that's right. I think some some people
did. I think it gave us a little bit of leverage on some of the
undergraduates anyway.
Frank McDermott: Well, and frankly, we were recognized by
the faculty who were actively involved in trying to keep
things calm. And I believe we got some deference from the
troopers, up to a point, because we ended up—I know it—I, my
recollection is at one point, we ended up in a line between the
line of troopers and the stone wall there on Commonwealth
[University] Avenue, where the Mayflower van, the huge
Mayflower van was parked and ready to receive the people who
were arrested. And I, for the most part, I think the policemen
respected us and didn't come after us generally. But when the
swarm started and they were grabbing everybody, and some of
the marshals also got thrown into that van. But I now want
you to hear the story from Ed about what he did from that line
on University Avenue. [laughs]
Randall Flaherty: I'm ready to hear it. I'm intrigued. Are we
talking about the night of the arrests, no?
Frank McDermott: Yes, yes.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes. So Frank's right. We stood between
the police, and the—or troopers and the kids you know, and
talking, you know, to the kids—"calm down"—talking to
police, saying, Don't worry, we're gonna we're gonna keep
this under control. And, I think the troopers were, I think they
probably—I'm not sure [they were] probably pretty mixed,
like, maybe the politics of the time were pretty mixed. But they
did seem to at least respect the armbands. But at some point, and
I think I was later told, the police said that somebody threw
a bottle at them. And I don't know whether that's true,
whether that's just the story, but they did just charge
all—everybody standing in front of the University and, and I
don't know how far down towards the Corner or how far down the
hill there they—the line was because I was right in front of
the Rotunda. And they came at us and everybody, because they had
German shepherds too, and they came at us with clubs and dogs
and everybody ran, and I guarantee you I was leading the
charge away from the cops. [laughter] I had no courage
whatsoever. And—
Frank McDermott: No, you had wisdom.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I hit the the serpentine wall or maybe it's
just a flat wall there, right to the right of the Rotunda in full
stride and I was over it in a vault, I didn't have to climb
it, I vaulted it. And I had been running with some guy—caught up
some guy who was just about to go over the wall also, and I was
over it while he was still trying to climb it, so I had to
go back and get him over it. But I was then in the gardens, where
I had, um, spent some time as an undergraduate. I was—I lived on
the Lawn for a year and I explored the gardens to full
extent while [McDermott laughs] as an undergraduate—
Frank McDermott: Enough said.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: —and so I knew where to hide, and I did, so.
And when the police were all roaming around but they didn't
find me they found—they didn't go—they went back in there a
little bit in the gardens and maybe picked up a few people.
But after some short time, I—when it was kind of calmed
down, I climbed out of where I was and I went and found a few
people still hiding on out in front of the Rotunda with the
police—some police still around and took them back to the
gardens and put them in places where they'd be safe. Then made
my way, I guess, back to the Law School to see what the heck we
were going to do.
Randall Flaherty: And Mr. McDermott, where were you during
all of this? Did you—were you similarly out observing or no?
Frank McDermott: Oh, I was I was out. I was definitely out amidst
it, and I was definitely on that line between the police and the
students, and I absolutely remember, I have a vivid image
of this Mayflower van with its side doors open. But I don't
have any recall of—maybe I was the guy that Finch came back and
helped over the stone wall. [Finch laughs] I don't remember.
[laughter]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I don't think so, I would have taken you to my
hiding place [unclear]— [McDermott laughs]
Randall Flaherty: Do you remember the build up to this? I
mean, what was it like before the charge? Can you—even like
what did it sound like? Were people yelling? I mean, what was
it like?
Frank McDermott: Well, let me add a sort of a pre-charge
impression. The—at that time it was University Hall, as opposed
to John Paul Jones [Arena], and that huge parking lot was
absolutely full of state police vehicles, including some armored
vehicles. I mean, there was an enormous presence of state
troopers on the Grounds. And frankly they, I was gonna say
earlier, I think they were very well disciplined. And it was
only when they, I think on orders, charged after they felt
something had occurred that was, was the end of it, the peak of
it, that they were not disciplined per se but they were
working in synchronism with each other. And they started hauling
people. I don't remember where I escaped to, but I definitely was
not caught. I don't know whether that was your question.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I don't—Randi, you and [Addie]
maybe you can actually help us remember, it seems to me that we
were in front of the Rotunda for, I don't know, two or three
days before this final incident occurred. Is that correct?
Randall Flaherty: Yes. It could have been because I think the
"honk for peace" rally, the—or the "honk for peace" initiative.
I think that was along University, right?
Frank McDermott: It preceded it, yes, it was it preceded too. And
Ed, you, you and we were operating out of that Downtowner
for more than just that night?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Oh, yes, for days. Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Can you tell me a little bit how that even
came about and then what it was like?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I cannot recall. I really can't recall
how I—how that happened. I just remember being there and being
on—sometimes on the roof, sometimes we'd be in the room
and and I was in communication with the University officials
and maybe some other other folks that were marshals. I just don't
remember.
Frank McDermott: You definitely were with marshals as well. I
mean, I do recall that because you were moving people around.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes. So.
Randall Flaherty: And can you describe what you could see from
your room?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Hm, I'm going to let Frank do that. I don't
remember.
Frank McDermott: Well, we certainly had a tremendous view
and remember, not just in the room, but up on the roof. I
think we might have been able to see University Hall and that
parking lot, but we could certainly see any activity
coming down Route 29, what was it called, Emmet Street, and
moving, frankly in a more easterly direction towards, is
it Carr's Hill, and the Grounds and the Rotunda. We were able to
see pretty much the police movements and frankly able to
see the movements and the collection in collecting the
students. It was just a very good vantage point at what was a
very important strategic corner intersection during these bad
days.
Randall Flaherty: And so then you would sort of be—is this
correct, that you would then get on the walkie-talkie and sort of
tell the marshals where they were needed?
Frank McDermott: Ed would, that was part of what he was doing,
even though he's sublimated it. [laughs]
Randall Flaherty: Well, a really the important question is did
you have a camera? Did you take any pictures of these views that
you had?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: We didn't have iPhones then. [laughter] No, no,
we—I didn't—and I don't know I don't think Frank took any
pictures.
Frank McDermott: No. I don't recall anybody having
photographic equipment.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: That was much later, people were doing that.
Frank McDermott: Well, and it was—we were busy. And we were
coming in and out of engagement. And we wouldn't have been
carrying around equipment like that.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, yes, you yes—you have to remember cameras
were big old things then. It just wouldn't have worked.
Randall Flaherty: Yes. Were you there all day?
Frank McDermott: Certainly all night. [laughs]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I was going to say mostly, I remember
the nights at the hotel. I think we were probably around the
Grounds during the day, you know, checking on marshals and
checking on where trouble was and meeting with the University
folks or, or other people and just kind of roaming around.
Randall Flaherty: What do you remember about the
administration? I mean, did you ever meet with Shannon or any of
the people? What was it—what were they going through?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Well, as I said, I think Dr. Shannon did
just an incredible job of threading a needle of, you know,
calm and the right to freedom speech and assembly, but not
tear things up—
Frank McDermott: And took a tremendous amount of political
abuse for it.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Boy, he sure did. And I think that one of the
things I wrote was in defense of him, and. So I don't really
remember who I talked to in the administration. I am, you know
90 percent sure that it wasn't Dr. Shannon directly. I haven't
been there now since, you know, been seven years, knew some
people in the administration and so I don't know who I was
talking to really but—
Frank McDermott: Ed, somebody that we both, but particularly
you, were communicating with a lot was Charlie Whitebread, who
was very much a presence, physical presence out and about,
but also interfacing with Law School and other administration
people, I believe.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I forgot that. You have jarred my memory, no,
you're 100 percent right, of course, as always.
Randall Flaherty: Can you tell me a little bit about what
Professor Whitebread was doing during these days?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: What who was?
Frank McDermott: Charlie.
Randall Flaherty: Yes, what Charlie Whitebread was—what was
he doing? What was he doing during May Days?
Frank McDermott: Smoking pot. [laughter] Not true, I want to
say for the record not true.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: He's gone now, we can tell the truth. No,
[McDermott laughs] He—Charlie was out and about, as Frank
said, and really engaged in trying to do really what Frank
and I were trying to do, which was hold down the temper of both
sides.
Frank McDermott: And very involved in getting those who
were arrested, out of jail on bail. Very involved in that.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, that night, Charlie and several of
the University professors went down to the jail and—
Frank McDermott: Law School professors in particular.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I should have said that, I meant Law
School professors. When I got a—I want to comment on that
because it's really, really important. Law School seniors
are, you know, third-year law students, who were all getting
ready to go off to various jobs and to get to practice law you
have to, of course, get a law license and to do that you have
to fill out this questionnaire and one of the questions is
always, of course, have you ever been arrested? And so these
people that got caught that night were arrested, and the
professors went down there and pleaded with the police and the
you know, chief of police, and DAs, or whoever, I wasn't there,
so I don't know. But as I remember, Frank, they were
successful in getting those, what 'nolle prossed' or
something like that, so it wasn't on the kids' records.
Frank McDermott: And that, of course, it wouldn't necessarily
have happened that night though, because that would have been
part of a judicial proceeding, but they definitely got people
physically out of jail. Definitely. And I think were
involved in cleaning up records after that.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, good memory. That's where we rely on
Frank for all this.
Frank McDermott: [laughs] And that's a sad story.
Randall Flaherty: So, Charlie Whitebread led the charge,
you're saying, to go down to the police station. And I guess I'm
also just curious in these days before, sort of, you know,
you've mentioned it, and other people have mentioned, that he
was active. And I guess I'm just, I'm curious sort of what
form that took? If you can recall at all I mean, do you
remember seeing— was he hanging out, sort of with the protests
and with the marshals? Was he talking to Shannon? I'm just
sort of curious if you remember anything about what form his
actions took.
Frank McDermott: He was certainly not hanging out. He
was, well I'll use another term, poetry in motion. He was forever
moving from place to place, advising, trying to calm, trying
to intercede. He was a tremendous source of support for
us in our activities. And, hm. Candidly, we would—we were more
in communication with him through Ed, than actually seeing
him, except from time to time, because he was moving around a
lot. Very dedicated man.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Wonderful, wonderful human being and did a
very wonderful and important job that night—those days, I mean.
Randall Flaherty: Do you—I think he gave a speech at some point
on the Lawn? Did you, either of you hear that speech?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I would not have remembered if you hadn't
again said it, but I do remember it now. Yes, I was there. It was
fabulous.
Frank McDermott: And I'm pretty sure I would have been too, Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, I'm sure you were.
Randall Flaherty: Do you remember the—
Frank McDermott: Don't ask me what he said. [laughs]
Randall Flaherty: Do you remember how it was received? Or
anything about it?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, but as you can tell it's a pretty dim
memory in my small mind. But I would say it was a very
important speech that made a difference to some people. You
know, there were—there was such a wide spectrum. It didn't have
people, you know, way on one side or the other didn't care
what he said. But a lot of people were kind of wondering
what's going on, why is this happening? Where should we be,
you know, emotionally and physically and politically, and
I think he, I think he helped draw together the middle.
Frank McDermott: I agree. I agree. And it was a very
important speech and an inspirational one.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Did you ever talk to him about May Days
afterwards? Did you ever sort of reflect back on it, with him or
maybe with anyone?
Frank McDermott: [laughs] Ed, let me tell a story if I may. I
mentioned earlier on that I was doing a take-home exam for him.
And of course the Law School was shut down. But come graduation
day, I did not do the procession on the Lawn because I was back
at my apartment working on this take-home exam. And I turned it
in, I think I turned it into him at the ceremony where the law
diplomas were given out in front of the Law School. And I was
there in my cap and gown with shorts on underneath it. That's
how formally I was dressed. And I think I was probably unshaven
because I probably had done close to an all nighter. And
then he sent me a note—
Edwin "Ed" Finch: What do you mean close to? What do you—wait,
wait, wait, what do you mean close to? You always did it all
night. It was all night.
Frank McDermott: For any exam. [laughs] And you were mostly
there with me, too. But I got a note from him or spoke briefly
subsequent to that and he said "Frank, you should have not, not
have gone pass/fail, you turned in an A exam." I said, "Charlie,
I just wanted to get the hell out there." So he was, I mean,
that's an example of some of the accommodation that he provided
because he allowed us to do a take home exam on a pass/fail
basis or a grade basis. Because our time in that time frame was
very disrupted.
Randall Flaherty: Well, that's directly relevant to what's
happened actually, this week at UVA. I think that's what
undergrads find themselves with, in terms of grading, so it's a
history comes around again.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Well, we've reached our time. So I do want
to conclude, but I do have one specific question before sort of
asking, you know, if there's any sort of greater significance in
this moment for you, but the specific question is, I—we've
read that there was a vigil outside of the Law School, an
all night—I think it's an all-night vigil. People marched
outside of Clark Hall. Do you remember that at all?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I do, I remember the vigil. Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Can you describe it at all, or what you
remember about it?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I don't remember much about it. I
remember candles and people—
Frank McDermott: Yes.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: There all night and but that's about all I
can remember. I couldn't tell you where in the process, what
day it occurred. That's all I can remember.
Frank McDermott: Ed, I was probably the sacrificial lamb at
that vigil. Do you think? [Laughs] Kidding.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: You could have been.
Frank McDermott: [laughs] No I do, I do have a vague memory of
it too, it definitely did occur, and was candle and it was all
night, but I don't have much more beyond that either.
Randall Flaherty: And then just as sort of as we're wrapping up,
looking back on May 1970 fifty years later does this—do these
events have any significance for you today? What significance do
they have?
Frank McDermott: You go, Ed.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Gosh, I was certainly going to let you go.
You know, as I said, I think I was—I evolved over, politically
speaking, over my three years in the Law School. I think that
event probably firmly set me in the middle. I don't claim to be
a Republican or a Democrat. I vote for the person these days.
And I think it was because I saw the—being firmly set in the
middle, I think, is because I saw the extremism on both sides
as being not what I thought was right, and not what I wanted to
be part of. And so I think maybe that's the significance I take
away from it is that it anchored my political feelings.
Frank McDermott: And I recall it as being a very profound time
and a very profound experience that has not been and will not
be forgotten. They were, politically across the country,
they were very dangerous times. Very volatile times. And we, of
course, were, frankly, probably an age group that was most
impacted by the draft. And by the events of the war, and
friends of oursnnot coming back or being maimed and then there's
this political overtone that occurred right there on the
Grounds, and the levels of involvement, and again, a very
significant figure in that is Charlie Whitebread. But there
were other professors who were very helpful and involved too.
And it was a sad, somber, dangerous, profound period of
time. And it wasn't just those couple of days, it was a
pervasive feeling for me.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Yes, it lasted for, you know, for a good while.
Particularly all the way into, you know, the Pentagon Papers
and Watergate and all it was—that was a continuation of
an episode of intense political trauma in our country.
Randall Flaherty: Yes, and for you—[McDermott starts] sorry.
Frank McDermott: I didn't come at it from a political
standpoint. For example, in terms of the right or wrong of
our being involved in Vietnam, it was just something that was
shaking the core of our country. And I thought, as Ed said a
minute ago, clearly brought out the danger of extremism on both
ends of the spectrum.
Randall Flaherty: Well, I think that's a great place to end it
but I do want to ask you, if there's anything else we haven't
talked about, a story, a memory, a point you want to make that
you want to make now?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I have some stories to tell about Frank.
[laughs]
Frank McDermott: I did get my diploma in my shorts. [laughs]
Randall Flaherty: I know, that was a great detail. [laughter]
Frank McDermott: Sorry, Ed, what were you saying?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I have some stories to tell you about Frank,
but I'll do it offline. [laughter]
Randall Flaherty: Oh good. Well, well, thank you so much for
joining us.
Frank McDermott: Randi, I think they had a name for us. Do you
remember it Ed?
Edwin "Ed" Finch: Oh, I do the twins or something like that,
what was it?
Frank McDermott: The Bobbsey Twins, yes. [laughter]
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I suppressed that Bobbsey part, but okay.
Frank McDermott: Yes, yes. Anyway, we had we had a
tremendous three years. Great experience, great professors,
great learning time and also great classmates. I mean, it was
a tremendous if not at the end there painful period of time.
Randall Flaherty: Yes, as a class, you seem very close.
Edwin "Ed" Finch: I think we probably are very close. I feel
like that.
Frank McDermott: Yes.
Randall Flaherty: Great. Well, we can end it here. I'll just say thank you.
BACKGROUND IMAGES: LEFT: FRANCIS “FRANK” MCDERMOTT
RIGHT: EDWIN “ED” FINCH THE BARRISTER, 1970 (UVA LAW YEARBOOK)
UVA LAW ARCHIVES