ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH: DANIT TAL
CLASS OF 2015 JANUARY 27, 2022
PRESENTED BY: UVA LAW SPECIAL COLLECTIONS
Addie Patrick: Okay. Hello everyone. Today is January 27,
2020 [2022]. My name is Addie Patrick. I'm the library coordinator here
at the UVA [University of Virginia] Law Library. And I am
Zooming into this oral history interview with Danit Tal for
the fiftieth anniversary of Virginia Law Women. And I'm
Zooming in from Charlottesville, Virginia, and I'm going to pass
it off to Randi.
Randall Flaherty: And I'm Randi Flaherty. I'm head of Special
Collections here at the UVA Law Library, and I'm joining via
Zoom at the Library.
Aspen Ono: And I'm Aspen Ono, and I am a 2L, to graduate in
2023 from UVA Law School, and I'm Zooming in from my small
apartment in Charlottesville.
Danit Tal: I'm Danit Tal. I graduated from UVA Law School in
2015. I am Zooming in from Yorktown, Virginia, where I live
now.
Addie Patrick: Excellent. Well, I'm going to get started with
our first question. So Danit, can you talk a little bit more
about why you decided to join Virginia Law Women?
Danit Tal: Yes. So I joined Virginia Law Women, I think as a
1L I think we had 1L reps or something like that. I'm sure my
initial impulse came from just my desire to join organizations.
I was you're like, stereotypical, join a bunch of
organizations, do a lot of things. I had taken four years
off between undergrad and Law School. So I was probably
motivated to like, get back into the student side of things. I
think at the time, I was motivated mostly by the fact
that my mom was an attorney, she still is. She always loved her
job. I grew up sleeping under her law firm desk in Manhattan,
actually, in the World Trade Center. She had me while she was
a 1L in law school, she went to [College of] William and Mary
law school. And she actually told me that she took me to
classes because I was very well behaved. And so I kind of grew
up seeing women in law firms and working in the legal profession.
But I had, I think, a fairly deep understanding that it could
be a very difficult path for women. I have three younger
brothers. And I was very, I think, like mature and involved
in my mom's career. And she just kind of bluntly told me, I
remember, I think when my second brother was born, that she
wasn't getting fired from her law firm, but she was asked to
leave, because you just couldn't have that many children. And I
remember kind of like being quiet under her law firm desk,
and I’d go there late at night, and take a town car, the town
car back to our house in Brooklyn, really, really late in
the morning, or at night, early morning. And that was sort of
like, so my mom could have time with me, she was a really,
really involved parent, but also working full time at a law firm
before the days of like blackberries and laptops. So, I
saw firsthand that the law could be a great career for women, she
ended up working in the Board of Education and doing
constitutional law, and she just like, completely loved it. But I
also saw the struggles that she faced. And I didn't fully
appreciate when I was a 1L, what I thought Virginia Law Women
could do kind of gained more of an appreciation, once I was
there and like involved in issues that women were having in
Law School, and then even a greater appreciation now that
I'm outside of Law School and have, you know, I spent five
years at a law firm. And now I work in house, at Capital One
[Financial Corporation]. But at the time, I thought, this is
great. We'll have women who can support each other, and I'll
meet people and have events and things like that. And this is
probably something important. And you know, that later all
really came to focus for me. But at the beginning, it was
probably just a motivation to, you know, understand what my mom
went through and have a support system for myself and other
women.
Aspen Ono: So you mentioned that there were 1L reps, were you one
of those 1L reps?
Danit Tal: Yes, I'm sure I showed up to, like the first VLW
[Virginia Law Women] meeting, not really sure what to think or
what like what would go on, and there were a couple 1L
positions. And it's probably just in my nature to try out for
things [chuckles]. So I'm sure I was like, oh, no, that's
something I should do. I'll meet people and maybe I'll have an
impact or something. I have like some vague recollection of
standing up and making a case for myself. So I think that's
how I got that position.
Aspen Ono: And did you hold any other positions other than 1L
rep and president? Like, what was your evolution into becoming
more involved with VLW?
Danit Tal: I think I was vice president my 2L year.
Aspen Ono: Okay.
Danit Tal: I'm pretty sure that's what I did. And I was
just like, very invested in what I thought VLW could do. We did a
lot my 2L year but, and sorry, this is a little bit more than
what you're asking for in the question. But I became involved
in a study with a couple of professors about women's grades
in Law School. At the time that I was there, there were hardly
any women on the [Virginia] Law Review. And even though women
were coming in with the same SAT scores and GPAs [Grade Point
Average], as the male students, they were underperforming. And
so like, that's why we weren't seeing as many women on Law
Review. And so we were studying that. And I thought that VLW
could be, like a force for good. We had a couple theories on why
this was happening. And one of them was like a Socratic method,
and women are too shy to speak up. They don't have the right
mentors in Law School, we have a lot of male professors, things
like that. And I thought that we could do things through VLW to
really like create a support network for women. So I, I think
I was thinking like, 3L year, I would do something and I wasn't
really sure what the current president that year, who was
Marta Cook, like, pulled me aside and told me I should run
for president. It's like, all right, I guess I'll do that. And
of course, like, in hindsight, I'm so glad that I did. Because
I'm really proud of what we did my 3L year there.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So today, Virginia Law Women is just kind
of huge, at least, because I'm the current secretary, and we
just have so many different board positions. And so can you
tell me a little bit about how it was structured back when you
were president or vice president? And like, what were
your different committees or positions that you guys had on
that board?
Danit Tal: I think it was pretty simplistic t the time. I think
we had, like the usual positions on a board and our 1L reps I, I
can't promise you that we didn't have committees. But that just
doesn't sound familiar. I think my 3L year, we created a new
position because we started the Tables for Eight, and the Women
in Big Law my 3L year. So we created a new position for
people to work on those things, since they ended up being such
huge efforts. And I don't remember if we ended up creating
committees, we probably had, like informal people
volunteering to help with certain kinds of events or
things like that. I'm really glad to hear that it's grown so
much. And now you have committees. That's awesome.
Aspen Ono: Yes, we speaking of Women in Big Law, we have that
coming up. But we're just trying to move it to virtual right now
with everything on Zoom. And so I guess I'm really interested in
hearing a little bit more about why you decided to create that
event. And the process of that, and I don't know, maybe it was
in relation to your mom, but just tell me about that
experience.
Danit Tal: Yes, those two initiatives were both really
important for me and both driven by, like my own personal
experience, and my mom and also what I was witnessing in the Law
School and studying with the professors. So Women in Big Law
in particular, I felt like big law kind of had a bad reputation
for women. And, you know, after doing it for five years,
understandably so. And we just didn't have events where we were
meeting women who worked at law firms, and asking them, like,
"What is it like? How can we prepare for our interviews? What
is your life like in a law firm? Is it possible to be successful
as a woman in a law firm?" There were definitely a group of us
who felt like we wanted to be mothers one day, and I mean, I
was older when I was in Law School, I think I was
twenty-seven. And I knew that getting married and having
children was somewhat close in my future. And I wasn't sure if
those things were possible, working at a law firm
especially, you know, given my firsthand experience with my
mom, and I knew that things had changed in twenty-plus years
since my mom was at a law firm, but I'd also heard horror
stories. So we thought it would be really good to bring in these
like women role models from law firms to talk to us about their
experiences, and motivate and encourage women to pursue
careers in big law, if that was something they were interested
in. How we actually went about that. We had a lot of help from
[Senior Assistant Dean, Career Development] Kevin Donovan, I
mean he was always such a huge supporter of Virginia Law Women.
He's just such an amazing person. And so many different
people at the Law School were supportive, and willing to help
us and help us with a budget, and things like that. So Kevin's
office was really, really crucial in making the
connections we needed to bring in women from big law firms to
do that event.
Aspen Ono: I guess I'm a little—sorry not to parse this
issue. But I'm interested because you keep talking about
how it was really hard for your mom, and how you've heard horror
stories about being in big law. So what made, first of all, you
potentially want to pursue that path, and then also encourage
other women to pursue that, if that was their choice?
Danit Tal: Yes. I think part of it was really that event, like I
did meet a lot of women through that event, and through
networking, that spoke really highly of their jobs and felt
like they had flexibility, and had amazing maternity leave.
Multiple women who came to the Women in Big Law event said, "I
left big law and worked for the government for a few years and
came back. Have all your children while you work at a law
firm, it's amazing. You get so much time off, and your pay is
great." I was like, what, like, really? It's something that
hadn't really occurred to me. And now I mean, I would advise
anyone to to that. I still advise some of my friends who
are working at big law, like, have your kids now before you
leave. The maternity leave is like almost six months, paid.
It's incredible. And, so I didn't want my mom's experience
to color what I would do. I also felt really strongly at the time
that if I worked at a law firm, I could do anything I wanted
after that. You go to UVA Law School, you work at a great law
firm, your resume is like, that's it, you can go do
anything you want from there. You can work for the government,
you can work for PETA [People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals]. I always thought I might be an animal rights
lawyer, or an environmental lawyer, and now I'm a software
lawyer. But, you know, that's the great thing about being a
lawyer, you can do a hundred different things in your career.
So I kind of just always saw it as a stepping stone, to be
completely honest. I never really looked at it as something
that I would do long term. And I think having done that for five
years, like that's still very true. And some, I'm glad to see
that some women do do it long term, but it is a difficult
environment for women, I think. If you especially want to have
time for things like children or family or extracurricular
activities in general. But I just, like, I wanted to remove
this stigma at the time, that it was a hellish place to be.
Because it absolutely wasn't. I mean, I, don't know if I would
do those five years again, but I learned so much. And it really
was like a great experience for me as an attorney and made me—it
made me a good lawyer. And my mom always told me that. She
always said, "It's gonna be really hard, but you're going to
come out of it, being incredibly smart and prepared for any job
you take next." And I just didn't want any sort of like,
bias against that, just because I knew maybe it would be a
difficult environment for women. And I think it's really come a
long way. And I wanted people to see that. So, that's kind of why
I went into it. I knew it wasn't going to be forever. I just I
thought it would be two years and it turned into five because
it wasn't that bad. [chuckles]
Aspen Ono: Yes, and you talked about WBL [Women in Big Law] as
being a great source for mentors, and it sounds like the
other program that you kind of, or at least VLW at your time
spearheaded was Table for Eight and that also seems kind of
mentor-driven, so can you tell us a little bit about what that
program is? Because we don't actually have it anymore, so I'd
like hear.
Danit Tal: Oh, really? Oh, man.
Aspen Ono: I think we have it in like a different form. Like we
have faculty dinners, but not not in that structure.
Danit Tal: Okay. That was really driven by the research I was
doing at the Law School, dealing with like the underperformance
of women. We thought, there is a reason that women are
potentially scared to speak up. Or not performing as well on
exams, or not going to office hours as much as males, or
things like that. And so we had heard about Tables for Eight,
which is something, I think, VLW or one of the other
organizations had done years and years before. And we thought,
well, that's a good way to get students in front of professors
in a totally different environment. So, at the time,
what we did was we'd have two professors male or female, host
a dinner at one of their homes, and we paid for it to be
catered. And it created just like, such a relaxed and
wonderful setting. I'm still friends with professors I met at
those dinners, whose classes I ended up taking, because I just
fell in love with them at these dinners and got to know them.
And in my experience, and I found this to be true after
having spoken to many people who attended the dinners, people
felt really comfortable speaking up in a different setting, when
you're at someone's house, and you're meeting their children,
and you're sharing food with them, and it's a really small
group of people, it's like six students and two professors,
it's easier to just freely speak about lots of different topics.
We came up with questions ahead of time to help drive
conversation, but found that people rarely needed them or
wanted to use them. And what I was hoping it would do, and what
I really think it did do, was break down some kind of barrier
where the professors are like these scary human beings who you
don't want to talk to and who are like otherwordly. They're
just human beings. And they have faced some of the same issues
that we faced in the legal career. And we just got to know
each other as human beings. So I think it was great for the
students to kind of like feel supported together, but also to
just feel like they could openly talk to their professors. And
then, I mean, I personally felt like when I went to class, I've
been in their houses, I talked to them, like it just made me
more comfortable to speak up and express myself and go to office
hours or ask questions. Or take my exams back into them and
review them, or things like that, things that maybe I would
have been a little shy to, to do. And so it it really, it
mostly came out of that, it just came out of wanting to create a
way for female students to feel some kind of support structure
at the school and potentially get rid of some of the barriers
that were, you know, theoretically contributing to
the the great disparity.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So you had a lot of initiatives aimed at
mentorship. But what did you, I mean, was that—what did you see
as VLW's main mission while you were there, like what did you
see the role that VLW played at the school as an organization?
Danit Tal: I think when I started, it seemed like a great
way to make friends, meet people, have a support network
of women students, which is great. And we continue to do
those things. Like, we went apple picking and wine tasting
and things like that. Like, there's so much to say for
having friends at the Law School and having a support network,
and having people you can ask for outlines or ask questions or
say, "Did you take this professor?" Things like that.
There's so much value in that. What I wanted to add to that was
to open it up to the administration a little bit
more. I wanted it to be an organization that worked closely
with different parts of the administration in different
offices to create like a broader support network for women, that
included professors, and staff, whether that was like, through
Kevin and his group and helping us set up things like the Women
in Big Law, or through the professors themselves, and
getting their buy-in and support to create the kind of
environment where female students would succeed.
Aspen Ono: Yes. And what—can you tell me a little bit about what
you felt like your successes and, not failures, but the
challenges that you faced during your presidency, specifically,
and, you know, kind of carrying out that mission?
Danit Tal: Yes. The successes were definitely those two big
events, for me, I feel like those were big shifts, and kind
of really, like kicked off what I wanted our mission to be like
involving a broader audience. It always felt a little bit hard to
organize events. I mean, it's just like, the nature of being
in law school, I was the president of two other
organizations and like doing, doing, like just having my own
life, and everyone was doing that, everyone was studying
really hard, and making friends, and going to Bar Review. And
it's hard to kind of create space for an organization to
have events that are really well attended. And I think our
solution to that was like, create two or three big events,
and really publicize those and get people to attend those. I
wish we had been able to do, or like to have more time to focus
on smaller events where we could just have a small group of
students having coffee together, or sharing a meal or going wine
tasting. We definitely did that. But I feel like I missed out on
forming some friendships or meeting people through events
like that, because we just didn't have the time or women
power to like, set those up. One thing that was really difficult
during my presidency was working with the feminist organization
at the time, I don't remember what they were called. We had, I
don't know why. But we had a lot of tension between our two
groups at the time, that was like, really unfortunate,
because I thought we should be working together, like the two
female organizations. I think from their perspective, the
issue was that we were doing too many events that were focused on
women having children. And they thought, you know, women don't
always want children or have children or whatever, that
shouldn't be the focus. I think from our perspective, we
thought, well, it's a reality that women have children, at
least, like a lot of us will, so we should address that. And we
should support that. But of course, we'll have lots of
events that any—like that can appeal to anybody. And for
whatever reason, there was there was a lot of tension over that.
And I really wish that we had been better able to resolve that
and work together.
Aspen Ono: Right.
Danit Tal: Like it just seems like those organizations
shouldn't be at odds. So I hope that's changed since I was
there.
Aspen Ono: Yes, so did you feel like there wasn't any, like
resolution to the that conflict while you were still in VLW?
Danit Tal: Yes, and no. We—I think we did the Tables for
Eight together. I think that was like, tried to do an olive
branch. And we tried to all do that together. And we made sure
to, like the list would get released to VLW at like, 8:00 AM
on a Thursday or something, and everyone's like waiting to sign
up. So we made sure to involve their group and they get the
list at the same time, and kind of like work on it together. But
overall, no there was a definite tension that kind of never,
never got cleared up while I was there.
Aspen Ono: Yes. And, I guess, did that affect how you felt
about VLW's work and representation of the women at
the Law School? And maybe the answer is no, I just like,
having that tension I can imagine would be really
challenging.
Danit Tal: Yes, I, it didn't affect my perception, because I
felt like I always had a very clear view of being a woman in
law. And to me, that was the reality of the fact that a lot
of women in law will have families and have to confront
the issue of, you know, leaning in or trying to have it all or
you know, whatever the expression was at the time. I
don't even know if “Lean In” [Lean In: Women, Work, and the
Will to Lead,” by Nell Scovell and Sheryl Sandberg. 2013.] had
come out at the time. And so for me, it always felt like an issue
we should be talking about, and we shouldn't exclude it. I felt
like we should just be inclusive, of any and all issues
women should face. I think at the time there was just like
It's such a push from the other organization to be anti-that,
and so I can understand their perspective. And if they wanted
to have an organization that was not that, I get it. I just
really was a proponent of like, we’re all women in law, we
should be supporting each other here. But yes, I didn't. I mean,
it just kind of like upset me more than anything. I don't
think it actually changed my focus or perspective. Because I
thought I was right, [chuckles] so, I was like, well, I'm just
gonna keep doing this, because I think this is the right thing to
do.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So other than that kind of unfortunate
conflict, was there anything unexpected that you experienced
or faced during your tenure as president?
Danit Tal: I don't think so. I was pleasantly surprised by how
supportive the administration and professors were. I mean, I
always thought the professors were awesome. And it's part of
the reason I came to UVA. But just like how willing they were
to share their time, and their homes and their families and
their experiences, like it was just so nice to see that in
action. It's something I saw, I mean, when you go to office
hours, or you talk to them, or you see them in the hallway, but
then, like, actually getting to know them on a personal level,
and becoming friends with them, was surprising and like, in the
best way, it was really a great experience for me.
Aspen Ono: Yes. Do you have like any special relationships with
professors that you maintain till this day?
Danit Tal: Yes, I still email them. And whenever I'm at the
Law School, I show up and say hi. Remember, I was like, I live
two hours from Charlottesville, and I love Charlottesville, so
sometimes I'll just drive up there and go to the farmers
market or something. And I bumped into Dean [Risa] Goluboff
and Professor [Deborah] Helman. Last time I was there. And I had
my son with me, and I was like, "This is my son." Last time I
saw them, I was pregnant. I came back to VLW for Women in Big Law
when I was a fourth-year at Lantham [& Watkins LLP]. And I
walked in and they were like, shocked to see me because I
actually had normal clothes on and my hair was done. I was just
always in like, leggings and a sweatshirt in Law School. And I
was seven months pregnant. They were like, "Wow, this is a
surprise!" So I've always kind of like emailed and kept in
touch with them. I was really close with Professor [Kerry]
Abrams and babysat for her kids. But now she's dean at Duke
[University]. And I've kept in touch with Kevin, he's great.
I've always kind of sent him emails, which reminds me, I'm
due to email all of them some pictures of my son, and I'm
actually four months pregnant now.
Aspen Ono: Congratulations.
Danit Tal: So there's another one on the way. Thanks. A girl
this time. So another, a girl to to teach the ways of the women
in law.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So you've talked about the faculty and the
administration being very, very supportive, which is fantastic.
But aside from the feminist group at the Law School, did you
guys—what was the kind of support that VLW received from
other students? Or what was your interaction with with other
organizations? Because, I mean, at least I know, today, we
co-sponsor most of our events. And that's been really great.
Danit Tal: I remember co-sponsoring a couple things.
But I can't really remember which organizations we
co-sponsored with. As a student, I was very much a proponent of
getting to know other student groups, not just in the Law
School. They started the tri-sector leader fellow thing
when I was there, and I got elected to it, and it's with the
business school, and there's like representatives from the
Med School, Business School and Law School. And I loved that. I
thought that was such a great way to kind of integrate Law
students and like into the other grad schools at UVA, and really
like broaden our networks. So I wish we had done more of that.
Like I always found other student groups to be really
supportive and interested in co-hosting events, but it was
more of a like, "Hey, do you have the budget to share the
price of sandwiches when we bring in this speaker?" Or
whatever. I wish we had like done more substantive events,
where we actually like mingled with the other members of the
the organization's and like, talked about our shared missions
or things like that. We really didn't do much of that at the
time.
Aspen Ono: Yes. On a slightly different topic. So you had
talked about the person that was president before you just
pulling you aside and saying, "Hey, I think you should run for
president." So can you tell me a bit about what your transition
into the presidency looked like? And then what you passing the
torch on to the next president looked like and and how that
went?
Danit Tal: It was pretty simplistic. I think it was like,
generally the trend that the vice president, or someone from
the board from the year before, would end up being the
president. And I remember there being like a handover of some,
like budget spreadsheets. Maybe our handbook or something. Like
it was very, very informal of, "Here are a couple documents,
and you kind of know which events we do." We tried to make
it a little bit more organized my 3L year. Someone named
Virginia Blanton, who kind of headed up our Women in Big Law,
she became the Women in Big Law person her 3L year, and she was
super, super organized. And I—she might have started as our
secretary, I don't really remember. But she was really
great at like, writing down or trying to keep a log like, here
are the events we do, here's why we do them, here's how much they
cost. And so we could try to help transition to the next
year. I personally knew the woman who came after me. She
was, like myself, had worked some years before Law School,
she actually had a kid while she was in Law School. She was a
really, a great spokesperson and president for VLW. So, I'm sure
it was a similar kind of like, "You've been around, you know,
what we do here are the big events, Virginia's got
everything you need to know. And here, here are the documents."
I'd love to hear if it's gotten a little bit more organized, but
it definitely was not very organized back then.
Aspen Ono: Yes, I think we have transition memos abound now. So
it's it's pretty—
Danit Tal: Wow. Very fancy.
Aspen Ono: It's a very tightly run ship these days for better
or for worse—
Danit Tal: Wow, that's amazing.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So you mentioned earlier that you came back to be
a speaker at Women in Big Law. Can you tell me a bit about what
that experience was like and seeing how it's evolved over
time since you guys created it?
Danit Tal: Yes, it was great. I loved coming back on the other
side. I think I got to come back, like, twice. And then
there was a snowstorm and then COVID, so. It was great to be on
the other side and just see how much it had grown. I think I
came back like two or three years in and it grew from like
just the reception after the event to actually going out to
organized dinners at restaurants, which was great.
It's like even more time to sit down and talk to each other and
ask each other questions and things like that. I was really
happy to see that. And also just seeing it on the law firm side,
like there was a lot of competition over who would get
to go. And I was like, wow, this is amazing—people really want to
go to this. And especially, I mean, Latham takes like, I think
the most UVA people of any firm. So there's always competition to
go back to Charlottesville, but I was like, "I am staking a
claim over this because I used to be the president. So I'm
sorry, but I am going to those." So like, I was fortunate in that
respect. But I was just glad to see that, one, it was continuing
to happen. Two, it was even bigger and more organized, and
there was more to the event. And that it was just like such an
established thing. Anyone I talked to was like, "Oh, yes,
that event. We know that event is coming. We rely on that
event.” Like just how involved Career Services was with it. I
was just so glad to see that it had, like, become like an
ingrained thing in the Law School.
Randall Flaherty: Can I interrupt for one second? As
someone who's not as familiar with Women in Big Law
programming. Can you tell us about what the program was when
you first created it? How did it run, what was the structure?
Danit Tal: Yes. So it was sort of the brainchild of Virginia
and I, and we thought let's pick like twenty law firms or
something. Let's go see if Kevin can help us first, otherwise, we
can't do this. See if they have alumni or contacts at these law
firms who would be willing to come back to UVA, and we will
just have a panel and a reception. And we will have some
of the woman sit on a panel, and then we'll have—we got really
good at these like wine and cheese receptions, I think, my
like 2L year and people loved them. Everyone loves like the
baked brie and whatever. So we thought, like, we could probably
get a lot of students to come to this, we could advertise it and
we could do it through the Career Services. And I'm sure it
would be a selling point for them too. And it's kind of a way
for law firms to come recruit people. So I think we just
started by talking to Kevin, getting his buy-in, and then
surprisingly, got a lot of interest from law firms so that
we were able to put on like, a couple different panels at the
same time. So students were able to sit in on different panels,
and each panel had a different topic. So one of them was like,
having women in big law, one of them was how do you succeed in
big law, and what does your career path look like? They all
tried to address different kinds of topics that women would face.
And then after the panels were over, we'd all meet in the
Kaplan [Auditorium] and have our wine and cheese and mingle. And
like say a couple words, and thank everyone for being there.
And of course, we had to get like, we asked some faculty to
come, and the dean and like some female professors and things
like that. So we thankfully had support, and we always had
someone to like, show up and say a couple of words or something
like that, which was nice.
Aspen Ono: Yes. So you've talked a lot about, you know, some
mentorships that you've, that you've retained over the years.
And you've talked about Virginia, it sounds like she was
a big part of your experience on the board. But do you have any
other friendships that you kind of built at VLW, and how that
has continued on or affected the rest of your career?
Danit Tal: Yes. I think probably like, my, my deepest friendships
are those with my, 1L section-mates that I'm still
friends with, who of course, like, came to VLW events to
support me, but I didn't really meet them through VLW. I think
probably what has been most important for me is just having
that as a network. So when I was interviewing, I remember talking
and sitting down with a couple different VLW members who were a
year ahead of me, and had already spent their summers at
law firms. And their input was so helpful to me when I was
deciding between firms, because they had good and bad things to
say. And they told me their experiences. And it really
helped me figure out where I wanted to spend my summer, what
kind of law firm I wanted to work in, which city I wanted to
work in. So I really relied heavily on that kind of like,
mentor relationship. And then even since graduating, just
having that network of women who were in VLW, either while I was
there, or before or after me, I've had people contact me and
say, "Hey, I remember when you were president of VLW." Or
"Someone told me like, you work a Capital One now, what's that
like?" And it just ends up kind of being this network that
continues on for for many, many years. And I kind of always
wanted it to be that. We didn't really create anything super
formal, I think we had started to when I was there, like let's
create a formal network of contacts. I remember starting
something like that my 3L year, but I don't remember how far we
made it with that. Like people you could actually email or call
and ask for advice or ask you know, "Do you know the person
interviewing, like, here's my resume." Just creating that kind
of network for women to reach out to each other and help each
other.
Aspen Ono: I guess, unless you Addie or Randi, have any
additional questions? Is there anything else about VLW and your
time there that you want to share?
Danit Tal: I guess I would just say like, I'm so glad that it
existed. It—there isn't really anything like that as an
undergrad. There aren't really organizations that are like
undergrads for women. And so I was like a little surprised that
that existed when I got to Law School, but I'd also inherently
understood why it was necessary. And now that I'm outside of
that, I see the importance even more. Like looking back now, I'm
so glad that I had that. And I think those friendships and
mentor relationships, and especially the professor
relationships that I was able to create, and other people were
able to create, really shaped my time at the Law School. And
really set me up for success upon leaving the Law School.
And, you know, I still feel comfortable to email Kevin and
ask him for career advice, or some of my professor friends,
I'm always happy to hear from them or tell them what's going
on in my life. I would, I'm always like a little worried
that at some point, someone will say there's not a need for, like
a women organization. And I hope that never happens. Because I
think the kind of camaraderie you feel with other women going
through a similar experience with you is just so valuable.
And, you know, I never thought we should exclude men from
anything. Like, men could come to the Tables with Eight, they
could come to any of our event—they were always, always
open. Very few came. But I think, you know, I mean, I was
part of the Jewish student organization, like there's
something to be said, for having some kind of commonality with
people and coming together over that, and bonding over that and
creating a support structure, especially when you're going
through something really difficult. Law school is a
really hard thing. A lot of people get a lot of anxiety and
depression, like, it's a tough thing to go through alone. So
it's really nice to have those organizations that exist, that
can really help people and bring people together. So I'm just
glad that they're still things happening. And this is
happening. And like, that, we're celebrating it. I think it's
awesome.
Aspen Ono: Well, thank you for your time. Is there anyone else
you think we should talk to?
Danit Tal: Have you talked to—so I think Marta Cook was the
president before me. If you talk to Casey Jonas, she was the
president after me.
Aspen Ono: I don't believe so.
Danit Tal: I can email you her name. She has a lot of opinions.
And she's really outspoken, and she was awesome. So, let me see,
I can find her email. Her last name—she hyphenated,
Trombley-Shapiro Jonas. But I think she just went by Jonas. I
can send you her name via email. And she probably still has her
UVA email, or I'm happy to like put her in touch with you or
something. I think she would be a great person to talk to. But
that's probably, I mean, you could talk to if you really
wanted to get more details on Women in Big Law, Virginia is
probably your best resource, Virginia Blanton. She got
married, but I don't think she changed her name.
Aspen Ono: Great. I'll give it back—the reins back to Addie and
Randi.
Addie Patrick: Yes, thank you Aspen that was. I mean, this has
just been a wonderful conversation between both of you
guys. I feel like I've learned so much about how VLW works now
and how it worked not so long ago. I'm looking at the
interview guide, just trying to see if there's anything that we
haven't covered. But it's been a very thorough conversation. I
had sort of a random question out of curiosity, whether Danit,
you knew anything about the history of the organization at
all? Or if there's any—of Virginia Law Women, if there was
any knowledge of how old the organization was, when you were
there?
Danit Tal: No, not at all. And I'm embarrassed to say I didn't
ask, like I don't know why it never occurred to me. I
remember—I'm like blanking on her name, who used to be the
head of Student Affairs? Ballenger, Martha Ballenger. She
was like one of the first females at the Law School. Like,
when they started taking women. Her son, Scott, went to UVA Law
and worked at Latham and was the roommate of the general counsel
at Capital One where I work. UVA is like a very, very connected
network. It's shocking when you meet someone from UVA like
everybody knows each other. But I wish I had done something like
interview her, or feature her in something. We always invited her
to events because she was very sweet and very supportive. But I
wish we had done something, like, historical focused on the
history of women at the Law School or the history of VLW.
Like that's something that would have been really worthwhile. But
it never occurred to me to do.
Addie Patrick: Well, I think it's not like necessarily a
necessity for student organizations, I can understand
why wouldn't be like a top priority. And here in the Law
Library, we're a little bit biased and thinking that
everybody should know and understand the history of the
Law School, but of course, people are going through Law
School, they're not worried so much about what happened fifty
or a hundred years ago, but just out of curiosity.
Danit Tal: Yes. But like, it's important. It's one of those
things that you're like, you don't really have to know it,
but knowing the history always informs what you're doing. So, I
kind of wish someone had asked me that question, and I could
have acted on it back then.
Addie Patrick: Well, it comes full circle because you're
continuing this project now. [chuckling] Which again, we're
very fortunate for. Randi, do you have any final questions?
All right, I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording. But
thank you guys again.
Danit Tal: Yes of course.