ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH: CHLOE FIFE
CLASS OF 2022 MARCH 4, 2024
PRESENTED BY: UVA LAW SPECIAL COLLECTIONS
Addie Patrick: Okay. Hi everyone, today is March 4,
2024. My name is Addie Patrick and I use she/her pronouns. I'm
the library coordinator at the UVA Law Library and I'm Zooming
in from Charlottesville. Today we're conducting an oral history
interview with current and former members of the UVA Lambda
Law Alliance, UVA's chapter of the Lambda Law Alliance, to
document the group's history in our archive, but also to
celebrate the fortieth anniversary of the group. So, to
start, we're going to go around with introductions. Starting
with Laurel.
Laurel Lehman: Hi, I'm Laurel [Lehman] (class of 2026), I'm a
1L in Lambda. And actually, as of last week, the incoming vice
president of community engagement for Lambda. And I use
she/her pronouns.
Chloe Fife: My name is Chloe Fife (class of 2022). I am an
alum of UVA Law and of Lambda. During my time at UVA Law, I was
the president of Lambda, as well as just a active participant in
the organization. Thank you for having me.
Laurel Lehman: Right, so—
Chloe Fife: Sorry, and I use she/her pronouns [laughs].
Addie Patrick: Great. Well, what year did you graduate, too? I
think I should have said that.
Chloe Fife: I graduated in 2022.
Laurel Lehman: Great, so we'll go ahead and dive into
questions. So first—oh, I have the background doing that. Well,
we'll have some fun effects on there [laughs]. First, I was
hoping you could talk about why you decided to attend UVA Law.
Chloe Fife: Yes. I obviously, like most students, there are a
lot of factors that went into my decision. One of the big reasons
I chose to attend UVA Law is I got a chance to meet some of the
folks in Lambda while I was going through the process of
selecting schools, and I felt like the Lambda group at UVA was
one of the most tight-knit groups I had ever encountered at
a school. And I thought that was really cool. I was really early
on into my gender transition, I'm a transgender woman, at that
time, and I wanted to find a place that would be very
supportive of me during that process. And I felt like Lambda
at UVA would be able to help me with that. Obviously, there are
other reasons, too. It's a, you know, it's a great school and a
cheap city [laughs]. So, it was one of the many factors that
went into my decision.
Laurel Lehman: Yes. And you kind of went ahead and preempted the
next question, which is, to what extent did your identity play
into that decision and kind of how so? And that encapsulates
that really well for us, thank you. So, I'm also curious if you
visited Charlottesville before you came, or whether it was kind
of sight unseen, and what your first impressions of
Charlottesville were?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I attended Charlottesville, I mean I
visited Charlottesville [laughs] before I decided to attend UVA.
I came during admitted students weekend, and it was a blast. I
suppose my first impressions were—I grew up in a small city
in southern Utah, and Charlottesville kind of reminded
me of it a little bit, for better and for worse. And but I
really, I thought that it was kind of a cool city where I felt
like I could really focus on my studies and be around a lot of
cool and smart people. So, I suppose that was my first
impression.
Laurel Lehman: That totally tracks. And was there any, did
you have a sense of—what was your sense of kind of the LGBT
community in Charlottesville? Or Lambda's connection to it or any
of like, did you have kind of different views of when you came
here of like, oh okay, what—of town/gown at all? Or was it—did
kind of the feelings around Lambda sort of translate into
feelings from Charlottesville?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I, and I felt this way during law school, too.
But I, frankly, felt that UVA Law was a little bit
disconnected from the rest of Charlottesville. And so, I
didn't get to meet a lot of folks., you know, LGBTQ folks
from Charlottesville when I was visiting. So that—I guess that
didn't factor into my decision as much, although I knew that
Charlottesville was a city that I felt more comfortable in than
some of the cities I lived in in Utah, [laughs] as far as
identity goes, and so I think that that was one thing that I
had in mind as I knew that Charlottesville would be more
accommodating to me than I had been used to.
Laurel Lehman: Yes. And then when you visited the Law School,
and then when you got—when you showed up bright eyed and bushy
tailed in August, what were your first impressions of the Law
School?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I had a lot of first impressions, as I suppose
we all did. Obviously, I was very excited, got into, you
know, a very good law school. I was very excited about becoming
a lawyer. And so, this whole law school experience felt very,
almost regal [laughs] to me. You know, I come from a background
where I didn't really even meet a professional until I was an
adult. Both my parents worked as—at the same restaurant
growing up. So very blue-collar background. And so, walking into
the law schools, it felt like—especially UVA Law and the
building that it's in, felt very—like I was kind of walking
into a new world. But yes, I, it was a very welcoming community.
I had met Jennifer Hulvey, who was the financial director when
I was a student, and she introduced me kind of to the Law
School community. And so, what a wonderful first impression.
Jennifer Hulvey is a wonderful human being that cares very much
about the LGBTQ students at UVA Law. So.
Laurel Lehman: Yes, I think Dean Hulvey has provided a [that kind
of a space] for so many of us and so it's—glad we get to hear
that here, too. And then sort of transitioning into—so now you're
on campus, and what would you say that the—you could, I was
hoping you could speak about the sentiment toward LGBTQ+ folks,
while you were a student, from other students, from the
faculty, from the administration? Like, obviously,
Dean Hulvey was part of the administration, but the
administration is a lot broader than just that. Sort of what the
sentiment vi—I was about to say sentiment and vibes, the
sentiment was [laughs] toward members of Lambda, or just in
general to queer folks, while you were a student?
Chloe Fife: Yes, and I think I'll get into this more when we
get into the Lambda-specific questions. But as far as the
broader community, I, there was, of course, a bit of a mix, as
there is everywhere. I came out as a trans woman and started to
transition almost literally the day I began orientation [laughs]
at UVA Law, and so I got kind of a unique experience. I mean I—my
classmates were absolutely wonderful about it. Everybody
gendered me appropriately, which was something I was very worried
about. The administration, you know, found out the day before I
was set to attend orientation, and changed all of my pronouns
on my name tags, and my name, and everything. So that was
really wonderful, a great introduction, and really showed
that there were people who cared deeply about the LGBTQ community
on campus, or sorry, on Grounds [laughs]. But the—yes, I mean,
obviously, there were some challenges, which I suppose we
will get deeper into with some of these other questions, but
there were some individuals who struggled to have trans people
in their classes. And you know, there were certainly some people
with less familiarity with trans people, as opposed to other
members of the queer community. And so, I think that there was
generally a positive sentiment, but there was also a lot of
education and a lot of tolerance, for lack of a better
word, going around as well.
Laurel Lehman: Absolutely. And then, kind of placing this in
context, you said you graduated in 2022 and we've got forty
years of Lambda history here. So, there's a lot of things that
are varying across those. What would you say the level of
openness was for LGBTQ students at UVA when you were there?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I'd say over three quarters of us were open
about our identities. Yes, I mean, there were plenty of very
openly queer individuals at the Law School. People spoke about
their identities in class, people spoke about their
identities in the halls, you know, at events, and it was very
much a part of the conversation at UVA Law. So, there was quite
a bit of openness. There was also some folks that chose not
to be open about it for various reasons. And so that still
continued while I was attending the Law School, but I would say,
very few of us chose not to disclose our identities.
Laurel Lehman: Yes, and then sort of in that moment, we also
have a lot happening at both the national and state level, right?
So this is, so Bostock is 2020. There, you start really having
the push for a lot of state laws, a variety of state laws.
What would you say kind of the—to what extent did LGBTQ
issues play into conversation, whether that's from the
perspective of like, historical legal issues that were unfolding
at the time? Whether that's in classes or in just, even in
conversation between folks?
Chloe Fife: Yes. I, it was very much a part of the conversation,
though I went to law school at an interesting time. The same
year Bostock came out, in 2020, was the beginning of the
COVID-19 pandemic. And so, we, you know, my class as a 1L began
taking virtual classes the spring of my 1L year, which is
about the same time that Bostock came out. And so, a lot of the
conversations were happening virtually [laughs]. And, you
know, we were socially isolating and so there wasn't a lot of
opportunities for people to naturally have conversations
about these topics for what you would think is the traditional
time as a law student to have these kinds of conversations
during con law, which is my spring—what I mean by con law is
constitutional law. And, but it still definitely came up, I
mean, for better and for worse. When these decisions were coming
out, there were professors that would start the day to kind of
acknowledge in classes that maybe didn't even have to do
with the decisions, or the kind of world events that were
happening. Professors would stop and acknowledge that something
had happened, give people a space to talk about it, and kind
of like digest it together. At the same time, there were some
professors, for example with Bostock, that they required
their classes to argue the dissents' point of view and
would cold call people and try to have them make the best
argument they could for the dissent. So, it certainly was,
you know, kind of a divisive topic.
And, on top of all that, particularly with anti-trans
issues, we reached, I think, the beginning of the height of
anti-trans laws and discrimination throughout the
United States when I was in my second year of law school.
Anti-trans bills began making the news for, I mean, there were
hundreds and hundreds of bills being introduced throughout the
country, some of them began to pass gender affirming care bans
for trans minors, began to pass—and those started to move
through the court system while I was in law school. And during my
third year, I think that that really became, when we were back
in person, a big part of the conversation. You know, I held
several events, particularly on these issues, to raise awareness
throughout the Law School. And we did phone banks and we, you
know, met with doctors in the community to discuss what these
care bans meant for trans kids, tried to kind of brainstorm
ideas to address these anti-trans bills throughout the
country. And I think that that was one of the most special
moments I had at the law school, the Law School community and
Lambda in particular came together to really kind of try
to make a difference on that front.
Laurel Lehman: Yes, that's a really powerful atmosphere to
kind of be in the thick of, especially as distinct from
what's happening. And I wonder if—are there any anecdotes in
particular from the, just like, made you, that felt particularly
powerful, kind of in that what I'm sure just felt like a
marathon?
Chloe Fife: Oh, geez, I don't even know where to start. I
suppose one anecdote that I can think of is I was sitting in a
room full of all these doctors talking about how we could
prevent Virginia from passing some of these same bills, and
kind of like get ahead of it in a way that I think Virginia has
shown itself to be able to do since. You know, Virginia has
blocked several anti-trans bills since I came to the Law School.
I think that there were a few representatives from the
Virginia congress that showed up and listened to these
conversations and discussed with us and cried with us. And, you
know, told us how invested they were in this issue. And got to,
you know, really hear from both the legal and medical community
how big of a difference this meant to trans people in
Virginia. I think that that moment will stay with me
forever, and that event, because not only do I think it showed
how committed people are in Virginia and at UVA Law, but
also because I do think that we were able to really make a
difference and make trans rights a focus. And you know I won't
declare that UVA Law completely—you know, we can't
take total credit for this. But I do think we made an impact on
how much awareness there was around these issues in Virginia.
Laurel Lehman: Absolutely, and I guess, just to pivot then—thank
you that was great—to pivot a little bit on to Lambda
specifically, where I'm sure like a lot of this was held, and
going—pulling back a little bit, how did you learn about Lambda
for the first time? Was it when you were applying, or when you
kind of came to campus and visited, or sort of what was
that? What was, how did, and—I'll just let you answer the
question. How did you learn about Lambda for the first time?
[Laughs.]
Chloe Fife: I think the first time I heard about Lambda was
back to Jennifer Hulvey. She invited me to a recruitment
dinner in Utah. She said it was the last recruitment, you know,
assignment she would take is going to Utah every year to
speak to potential students there. And I got a chance to
meet her. And I was talking about, you know, being open in
Utah. And she said, Yes, well, we have an amazing Lambda
organization that builds itself from the ground up. That, you
know, from back in when it was almost impossible to be open
about being queer, to being one of the biggest and most
cherished organizations in the Law School. And I thought that
was really fascinating. I think from there, I got to meet the
president at the time, Jess Feinberg (class of 2021), who is
an amazing human being as well. And she kind of introduced
herself, told me about the community, introduced me to
other members of the community. And that's kind of when I
decided it was—or got to see how great it was.
Laurel Lehman: And then when you got to campus, was there a
process to join the group?
Chloe Fife: So, I don't remember how I joined the group to be
frank with you. But I remember how we invited people when I was
president [laughs]. So, every year, folks could select whether
or not they are queer on applications to the school and
also whether they're willing to disclose that information. And
in a very confidential process, we were able to kind of use that
list to reach out to individuals and ask them to join Lambda. And
that's all it took is, you know, if they said yes, or you know,
they wanted to join, then they were in [laughs]. So it was that
simple.
Laurel Lehman: And then I guess well, I imagine this will have
changed a lot, especially with kind of before and during COVID,
and when things went virtual, but what were Lambda meetings
like? What activities did the group do? What kind of stands
out?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I mean, Lambda does, did all sorts of things. I
think the first meeting I ever attended was kind of a general
body meeting that introduced everyone to the Lambda group and
who was running things and what activities were coming up. And I
mean, like the meetings really ran the gamut. I mean, we
would—I think for as long as anybody I went to school with
could remember and who they were friends with could remember, we
had the best Feb Club party in the Law School, which is a, you
know, events that occurred every February where every group put
together a party for the whole Law School to attend. And Lambda
is known for really just throwing the best parties. So
that was one really fun part of it. We did some educational
events during COVID where we, and we'll get to this again in
just a moment, where we spoke about intersectionality and, you
know, what Black queer folks experience in Lambda. We did
phone banks, we did—I mean, I'm sure I am not even remembering,
there were so many different kinds of events we did.
Laurel Lehman: And then in terms of the people who made up those
events, what were the group's demographics like, and how did
issues of intersectionality affect the group? And also
recognizing there's a lot of letters in LGBTQ and sort of
like, even the breakdown there, what did that look like?
Chloe Fife: Yes. When I was in Lambda, it was still primarily
made up of mostly white cis gay men, as most LGBTQ organizations
are to this day. And, you know, I think as I kind of took on the
presidency, and throughout, like, my predecessors time as
president, we, there was a recognition that there needed to
be more intentional efforts to make other folks feel included
in Lambda. I do think I personally felt very included
and welcomed as a trans person in joining Lambda, and that was
fantastic. But there were and are so few of us trans people
attending law school, that we just didn't make up a huge
portion of the demographic. And, you know, I spoke to a lot of
Black members of Lambda, who felt a little bit as if Lambda
had struggled to address issues of race, whereas the—BLSA [Black
Law Students Association], which is the Black students
organization at UVA Law, struggled to address issues of
queer identity, and there was a difficulty kind of marrying
those two things together. And I think that is something Lambda
struggled with, is making sure that, you know, folks that
aren't traditionally included in LGBTQ spaces, in queer spaces,
felt included. And yes, that's something that we did work on.
But I think it's probably still something that it's working on
today. You know, it's I think, bi [bisexual] people, people of
color, and trans folks were certainly underrepresented in
the group.
Laurel Lehman: And then in terms of interacting with Law School
faculty or administration, what did those interactions look
like?
Chloe Fife: So those were also varied. I've already spoken
about Jennifer Hulvey. So that was one way. Jennifer Hulvey was
kind of a unofficial adviser to Lambda [laughs]. She was very
connected and had many conversations with me when I was
president and presidents before me. And another name that will
probably come up a lot in these interviews is [Professor] Anne
Coughlin, who is the, you know, our official faculty member,
advisor for the group. Anne Coughlin has for decades, I
believe, been a huge component of the Lambda group. She has
always supported Lambda and she kind of always made sure that
there was somebody in the room for faculty, in the faculty and
administration, that was thinking about Lambda and kind
of was there to support whatever we needed to do. Yes, and I
suppose also while I was president, one interaction we
had with faculty was talking to them about installing gender
neutral restrooms at the Law School. So that was another way
we interacted with the administration. I, you know, one
of my goals as the first trans president of Lambda was to make
sure we got gender neutral restrooms in the Law School.
And, of course, the pandemic impacted that, but we were able
to speak with the administration. And sometimes
those conversations were, frankly, quite heated [laughs].
But we got there. And now the summer after I graduated the Law
School installed gender-neutral restrooms on the main floor, the
main hallway with the largest classrooms, right next to the
men's and women's restrooms in that hall.
Laurel Lehman: And as a 1L, people have no idea that those
weren't just part and parcel a couple years ago, so thank you
for the work you did there. That's, it's pretty incredible
even just to watch a couple of years go by and the change that
can happen there and like know that that's the fruits of—. And
I guess that also kind of—taken together across your time in
Lambda, how do you reflect upon that time and all the different
moving pieces therein?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I mean, it was really a great time. I think
Lambda was a big reason why I enjoyed my law school
experience. It was really an honor to be able to lead the
organization, especially during COVID-19. The protests around
George Floyd's death, you know, there was a lot of change that
needed to happen in Lambda, and around the world. And it was
just incredible to see Lambda come together during those
times, and, you know, raise money and raise awareness and
try to make a difference. You know, we all got to experience
being advocates and being community members at a time
where being queer was maybe a little bit harder than it had
been for the preceding years. And so, I look at it fondly. I
do think there were moments that were frustrating as well. There
was still some friction around our identities in the Law School
and in the world. But overall, I think it was just a wonderful
experience.
Laurel Lehman: What do you hope for the future of Lambda?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I hope that it continues to keep fighting, both
for more inclusion and for, you know, the world at large. I
think that that's kind of baked into what Lambda is about. And I
don't want that to change. I hope in the future that queer
students of color can feel completely welcome and
comfortable in the group. And I hope one day that, of course
this goes beyond Lambda, but that queer identities won't be
so marginalized and there won't be quite a need for the tough
conversations that Lambda kind of supports students through.
Laurel Lehman: And then what advice do you have for current
and future LGBTQ+ law students?
Chloe Fife: I would say [pause] first, recognize that your
identity is not that represented in the law to this day, no
matter what it is, no matter who you are. Queer identities are
just not represented among lawyers. And that is hard. It
will make things feel more difficult, feel a little bit
like you're trailblazing at times. And that's not—it's not a
fun process. But it's so, so necessary. I would just say
spend your time in law school learning how to build community,
how to advocate for yourself, and how to be the kind of lawyer
that matches your identity. Because queer lawyers are not
only needed, but we're—we make a difference just by existing in
this profession. And you'll need those skills out in your
lawyering career to both be who you are and also just kind of
make way for yourself and others that, you know, will—as other
queer lawyers in the profession.
Laurel Lehman: Right, thank you. Those were all the official
questions on the list, I want to check and see if there's
anything else that you were like, Oh, I'd really meant to
talk about this, or like, This is this a thing that was an
important part of my time at UVA or in Lambda that I think should
be reflected in here. And if not, that's totally okay. I just
want to make sure there's a space for it.
Chloe Fife: Let me think about that for a second.
Laurel Lehman: Take your time. And Addie if you have anything
feel free.
Addie Patrick: I maybe do have some follow-up questions, but
you think a little bit. [Pause.]
Chloe Fife: Nothing's coming to mind. Great job covering all the
topics [laughs.]
Addie Patrick: Yes, Laurel, this is excellent. I had—so I don't
want to push too much on things like friction and heated
conversations and things like that, because you're, it's well
within your right not to disclose things that you don't
want to talk about. But I am a little bit curious about the
gender-neutral restroom battle, I guess, a little bit. What was
some of the pushback that you received in those conversations?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I suppose I should tell the full story. It's
fairly public anyway. So, [laughs] I, you know, I, yes.
So, when I started my presidency in Lambda, I reached out to the
Law School administration, including the dean of the Law
School and said, Hey, I really think we should prioritize
getting gender-neutral restrooms. Not only is this just
human decency, and there are people that need these
bathrooms, but there will be more nonbinary law students and
students that feel more comfortable using gender-neutral
restrooms coming through these halls every year. And I was one
of them. When I was in law school, in between classes,
there were two gender-neutral restrooms in the library. It
took me sometimes ten, fifteen minutes to use those restrooms
between classes. And it was an incredibly frustrating
experience. And I wanted future law students to not have to deal
with that and get the same bathroom experience as anybody
else in the Law School. And, you know, when I reached out, I was
told, in the midst of the pandemic, Let's wait it out a
little bit longer. You know, Let's wait until there's less
social distancing and we'll talk again. And I thought that was
fine.
In the meantime, I got to speak to faculty members like Anne
Coughlin, who told me that there was once a time in the Law
School where the situation was exactly the same for women's
restrooms. The women's restrooms were tucked away in places that
were hard to find and kind of difficult to get to in between
classes. And everyone kind of didn't understand why the
women's restroom needed to be there next to the men's
restroom. And, you know, that kind of reminded me why it's so
important to get these gender-neutral restrooms on the
main halls next to the men's and women's restrooms. I knew that,
for me, was a question of dignity. Putting these restrooms
away where you can't see them sends a message to folks that
need to use those restrooms. And the spring rolls around, Trans
Day of Visibility, we received an email from the Law School
administration saying that they had installed a gender-neutral
restroom on the third floor of the Law School, which most law
students at the time didn't even know existed. Laurel, you may
not know that there's a third floor to the Law School
Laurel Lehman: That was the face I just made. It was like, The
third floor? [Laughs]
Chloe Fife: Yes, it's quite tucked away. The only real
people that use it are the Law School Foundation. And so that
to me signaled, at the time, that it was not only possible to
install gender-neutral restrooms in the Law School, but it was
easy because they did it quite quickly. And to me that was
quite offensive on Trans Day of Visibility, because we had asked
to be a part of the conversations of these
gender-neutral restrooms. We'd asked specifically for
gender-neutral restrooms on the main floor for a reason. And we
were told it was too difficult. But if it was so easy to
transform a bathroom into a gender-neutral restroom on the
third floor, then we didn't understand why they couldn't for
the main floor either. And just because it was such, to me, it
was—it felt a little bit like a slap in the face. Being the
first trans president, being excluded from these
conversations, not being updated until these restrooms were
there. I went public with it and put out a series of tweets
[laughs] explaining the situation. Because, you know, we
kind of felt a little bit excluded, obviously. Well, first
that did garner some attention throughout the Law School
community and beyond. A lot of alum found those tweets, and
that got us a conversation with the dean. [Laughs.] So, you
know, and it was—. You know, looking back, I don't regret
tweeting about it, there may have been a more diplomatic way
to handle the situation. But I don't regret it, simply because
like people had been asking for gender-neutral restrooms at that
point for years and years. And so, we, I felt we were in a
position that we wouldn't be taken seriously unless there was
a large amount of support behind us and unless people knew
exactly what the situation was around these bathrooms at the
Law School. We sat down with the dean, and we asked for
gender-neutral restrooms to be installed on the main floor by
that summer. And the dean was going to hear us out, though
[pause] there were still some hiccups there as well.
First, you know, [pause] essentially, we were told that
we ruined the trust of their relationship by going public
with this information, and that we had handled ourselves
inappropriately. And that, from the, that we would be taken on a
tour of all the gender-neutral restrooms in the Law School to
show that they already exist, which of course I knew where
they were, because I was using them. And also told that they
would be following a building code that stated that
gender-neutral restrooms should have the doors taken off of them
so that people would feel safe using them from assault. And I
[laughs]. Yes, so that was the reaction that we got. And so
obviously, that got quite heated for me, because I disagreed with
a lot of things there. And I felt like we—Lambda should be
very involved in these conversations, that the
gender-neutral restrooms should be no different than any of the
other bathrooms in the sense that everybody—they should have
a door. And we should get it installed as soon as possible.
We also disagreed and thought that the way that we handled it
was an incredibly effective way to get people the bathrooms that
they deserved. And it turned out that it was a very effective way
to get the bathrooms installed. And they weren't installed that
summer, but it took one more year and they were installed the
summer after that. So, that's kind of how the conversation
went. Yes, so it was a little bit heated. But at the end of
the day, I think we were able to come to agreement that these
bathrooms needed to be installed. And that's what
mattered to me.
Laurel Lehman: I'm also a little curious—so following up on, so
when you tweeted it out, kind of recognizing how quickly things
can go viral online, in law school communities, and how
quickly they can spread. Did you find that—it seems like that's
where you got kind of a groundswell of alum support.
Would you say it was primarily that, or did it bleed into parts
of Twitter that were not as supportive and what was your
experience? It seems like writ large, you're happy with having
gone that way. But I'm curious what your experience online was
and what—if that said anything kind of about online ecosystems
at the time for queer folks?
Chloe Fife: Yes, I mean, like did—yes, I mean, the vast
majority of the responses were positive, in that the vast
majority of people that reacted to these tweets wanted to see
the bathrooms installed. There were a few people, I don't know
necessarily who they were, how they fit into the UVA Law
community, but were confused why a trans woman would be
advocating for gender-neutral restrooms, because in theory, I
should also be advocating for using women's restrooms. And so,
there was kind of a little bit of confusion and also some
transphobia around that, in the way that people kind of tried to
invalidate using gender-neutral restrooms in general, because
some trans people use men's or women's restrooms. But yes, I
mean, in the context of the Law School, and when I did from
time-to-time tweet about the Law School, I generally got positive
responses.
Laurel Lehman: Thank you. Go back to Addie's [unclear].
Addie Patrick: Yes. Thank you for that, that was an excellent
telling of that story. Thank you. And yes, I think I'd second
Laurel's points. I—change happens so fast at the Law
School, and the institutional memory for students is good in
some ways, and not so good in others, not necessarily in a
good or bad way. But yes, I think, Laurel, you're totally
right. Students would now never think that those restrooms had
never been there. And I mean, too, Anne Coughlin's point too
about the struggle for women's restrooms. We've done some oral
history interviews with previous presidents of Virginia Law
Women, and I mean, in the 1980s, one of the big stories at the
time, in the Virginia Law Weekly, was that there was a
former men's restroom that had been converted to a women's
restroom and all the urinals were still in the restroom, you
know. So that, there's pictures of that. And that was a big
story for a while until finally the urinals were removed. But at
the time, the administration was like, Why do we need to take the
urinals out? Just don't use them. You know. So, you know,
it's a multi-year situation. But I did have another follow-up
question because I was really interested in your story about
Lambda meeting with the doctors, and it sounds like some
legislators, to talk about these various trans bills that were
coming in through the legislature. I was wondering if
you could just expand a little bit more on that singular event?
Or was that multiple, a series of events? Or what—how did that
happen?
Chloe Fife: Yes, so I dedicated my last semester of law school
to these anti-trans bills. And I kind of went out on my own a
little bit to do it. I did have the support of Lambda, but I
also connected with other student organizations to do this
and kind of branched out and relied on these organizations
for support. But I did it kind of without—outside of an
organization. We held several events on the anti-trans
legislation. I think it started with—there was an event put on
by the Federalist Society, called "Does Women's Rights
Require Abortion?" And they invited a speaker who's a
renowned anti-abortion feminist, who's also a trans exclusionary
radical feminist, which is a feminist who believes that trans
women should not be included in their definition of feminism.
And we put together a response event to that within the same
week. We found out about the event on Monday, we spent two
days putting it together, and we had a response event called
"Does Men's Rights Require ____ [blank]" and then below the
blank, we had things like Viagra and other, [laughs] you know,
items of men's health. And we obviously meant to be a little
bit satirical, and we invited a bunch of speakers to that event.
It was really incredible what we were able to put together in the
span of a week. We got a trans person who studies trans health
care, we got the—one of the leading advocates for the Equal
Rights Amendment to join, and we kind of just started with an
event both talking about reproductive rights but also
about trans rights and trans people's access to health care
because of the way that intersected [with that FedSoc
event].
And then from there, the anti-trans bills continued to be
passed, and so I decided to continue having events. [Laughs]
And so, the next event that we held, we started by doing a bake
sale for trans youth in states being impacted. I believe Texas
was the state we focused on at the time, because it had passed
a—or there was an opinion released by the attorney general
that would have classed gender health care as child abuse in
minors. And we raised a record amount of money to support the
organizations in Texas supporting trans youth. And to
commemorate the bake sale, we held an event, I gave a speech
talking about how much these anti-trans bills mattered to the
trans community and how much of an impact they were making
across the country. And kind of gave people an opportunity to
hear about it and how much it actually impacts, on a personal
level, a trans person's life. And then we did brainstorming
sessions during that event. We split off into groups, and we
kind of talked about what Lambda could be doing as an
organization and the Law School community could be doing as a
community to support trans youth. And that's where we came
up with the idea to do phone banks. And we called lawmakers
across the country that were considering gender affirming
care bans to advocate against them. And we coordinated with
Anne Coughlin, who was starting the Sound Justice Lab, I believe
it was called at the time. And as one of her first events,
under the Sound Justice Lab, we reached out to healthcare
professionals in the area who focused on trans rights, and
worked with trans minors, to discuss the healthcare aspect of
all of this, because we wanted—the goal was to have to—.
I'll backup to say that one of the goals that I had, and that
other people that were coordinating with me, including
Anne Coughlin, had, was to take a really holistic view to this
anti-trans legislation. We thought the Law School could be
a little bit more cohesive with other professionals in the area
and other areas of expertise. And so, one of the ways that we
wanted to do that was to bring in doctors that were experts in
gender affirming care that could really describe, from a
professional point of view, how this impacted trans kids. And we
had, you know, the whole room turned out. We had lawmakers
there to speak about these anti-trans bills as well, so
that's kind of how we got some lawmakers to show, you know, in
the room as well. And we just kind of had a discussion about
what these anti-trans bills meant and how dangerous they
were, to not only the trans community, but just the law in
general. I mean, these laws mirror a lot of the ways—and you
know, I wish I could quote it, but there are papers that
discuss this, that mirror Dred Scott laws. And it's a really,
you know, big momentum, from my perspective, very momentous
moment because if people are able to succeed in passing the
anti-trans laws and direct the way that trans people live, then
it'll become easier for them to do so for other identities. And
so, we were really just trying to draw the strings together a
little bit and show the community how much this
mattered. So that was the point of the event, and it was an
incredible, very successful, event.
Addie Patrick: Was it at the Law School?
Chloe Fife: It was, yes.
Addie Patrick: Those are the two follow-up questions that I have.
I don't know if, Laurel, you have any?
Laurel Lehman: No, that's great. Thank you. And thank you for all
the grunt work you did for Lambda we have today. We were
literally talking about like, Alright, how do we want to think
about phone banks for the fall when we got together last week,
so.
Chloe Fife: I'm so happy that you all are still doing that.
Laurel Lehman: There wasn't any this year, as far as I know. I
might have missed it, but I flagged it as like Hey, it's
'24, both advocacy and also making sure we have spaces for
folks to decompress after whatever happens in November.
So, we'll keep it going.
Addie Patrick: Right. Well, I am going to stop the recording now
and then we'll have a couple of minutes to say our goodbyes.
Thank you.
Chloe Fife: Thank you.
Addie Patrick: Okay.