Can you tell us
how you got to Charlottesville?
Tell us your history?
Sure,
um,
well,
I grew up in Illinois,
um,
central Illinois.
I,
um,
grew up in the Mennonite Church,
um,
and so when I was looking at schools,
um,
I came to visit Eastern Mennonite,
which is in Harrisonburg,
and,
um,
I fell in love with it and decided to come come out
and,
um,
really fell in love with Virginia.
In the landscape,
um,
the contrast of the flatlands of
the Midwest compared to,
um,
these forested.
Beautiful mountains in Virginia,
really,
um.
Uh,
really,
I,
I took to it
and um.
So I,
uh,
was in Harrisonburg for three years at Eastern Mennonite.
Um,
my senior year in 1993
to 194,
I spent in an alternative program
living in
Washington DC where I had an internship
downtown in a gallery and
lived in a group house
and
took some classes around DC universities there.
And I met um my husband
um
uh actually he was in uh in Harrisonburg attending
JMU and I would visit on weekends friends in Harrisonburg
and we ended up um at the same party and struck up a conversation
and
um
and the rest is history there um
so when we both graduated we moved into an apartment
together and lived in DC for a couple of years
um.
So,
um,
I followed him to grad school in Knoxville,
Tennessee,
and,
um,
then when he graduated,
uh,
we were looking for places to to live and we're considering
um a couple of places but decided to come to Charlottesville because
it was close to DC it's close to the mountains
and the natural beauty and also um
my husband's family is from,
uh,
the Fluvana area in Charlottesville so we we decided to move here.
OK,
so
can you tell us a bit about
What you've been doing in Charleston?
Sure,
um.
So when we,
uh,
my,
my background is in the arts
um
and uh my husband's background is in wildlife management
um
so he uh was able to secure a job at State Farm
and um I worked a couple of different jobs,
um,
attempting when I first got here,
um.
Uh,
I'm an artist,
so I kept up my own practice in the studio,
um,
and
I was able to get a part time.
Part time teaching position
in Fluvana County,
so I would
drive in the mornings out to Fluvana High School and
teach a class and then I would drive back into town,
um,
but.
Because I was teaching part time,
I was given a provisional license um to teach which allowed me,
um,
a period of 3 years to work on getting a,
a,
a certificate of teaching,
a license,
um,
here,
so I took a bunch of classes at UVA and um I was in the classroom getting my um.
My hours,
um,
student teaching hours basically,
and then,
um,
in 2 years I,
uh,
got a full-time teaching position in Louisa County public schools,
um,
teaching at the high school
and so I worked there for a little bit
but all the all the while living in Charlottesville,
so,
um,
driving 40 minutes out to these places,
um.
You know,
was,
was a burden,
um,
and a position came up
here at in um at Clark Elementary which I lived in
on Hinton Avenue at the time which was 3 blocks away,
um,
so I applied for that.
I'm really kind of nervous about teaching really little
kids because my experience up to that point had been
with high schoolers and and middle schoolers,
um,
but
when I.
I,
I applied for the job I was hired on and
as I started teaching at um at Clark I really found
that was my home.
um I loved teaching elementary
I was good at it
um it was part of my community it just felt
like the,
the perfect fit for me
so um I taught at Clark
and at Greenbrier for 11 years
for Charlottesville City schools,
um.
And then uh um administrative position came available and so I stepped into that.
I really missed the classroom a lot,
but I,
um,
I still get to work with a lot of
wonderful teachers.
We have incredibly talented and dedicated teachers,
and I'm also not only in the visual arts,
I'm working with um
our uh theater program,
our orchestra,
our band,
our course,
and all our general music um teachers.
Um,
which is wonderful,
yeah.
Good.
So,
could you talk a bit about the LGBTQ community here,
what you discovered,
what you and Darren discovered when you came here,
your connection or interaction?
Sure.
So when we first moved here,
um,
Darren's oldest oldest brother
is gay,
um,
and was a teacher in Fluvana,
not out
publicly to his,
um.
His uh
students
um
so when we moved here and I was looking into teaching,
I,
I tapped him as a resource just to say you know how what is the what is the climate,
what do you what do you suggest for someone who's who's gay and um
because
living in DC and then also in Knoxville I was
out to my coworkers people knew who I was and.
Um,
about Darren and our relationship and um.
So when we moved here and I started working in Fluvana,
I,
um,
the word that I heard from him was just you just keep that private.
You don't need to talk about it with anybody,
um.
And,
and so starting
out at both Fluvana and Louisa,
I really was living in the in the closet,
not really sharing that
part of me,
um.
Not not totally hiding it but
also not offering it up at all,
um,
so when I started working for Charlottesville,
um,
I
knew that in the in the state code that
sexual orientation was a protected class and I felt totally
open and at ease and I wanted to start my.
My job in the city as being an an open person
and my principal at
um Art Stow who was a principal at at Clark at the time
was um.
Really understanding and welcoming
and as was the the teaching staff there,
um.
So I've been able to be completely open with my colleagues and my parents and um
I really haven't felt at all any
kind of judgment um
or any
negative repercussions
because of that.
I think Charlottesville's a very welcoming place.
It's a wonderful place to be involved in the creative arts.
Um,
and I think in general the LGBT community are people who love the arts
and cherish them and nourish and nurture that that aspect and so I think
that,
um,
is a reflection of our community,
um.
So when we moved here we knew Darren's brother
um
and his great uncle um who had also been in education um
who was uh retired at the time with his partner they lived here and so they kind of
welcomed us um
but we really didn't know very many other people,
um.
Who are out
um or who were partnered.
Um,
but we would occasionally we'd go out to 216,
which was a club
here,
or to Escafe.
Um,
we had lived in DC,
so sometimes we would go and visit friends up there,
but
as,
as we,
you know,
as time goes by when you move to a place you'd begin to meet people,
um,
and so we'd meet friends,
we'd go out for drinks,
um,
both at Escafe and 216,
um.
Um,
that was kind of the thing to do
and then I think as society kind of
opened up,
um,
more and more other restaurants became interesting to go to and welcoming as well,
um,
I didn't really fear walking into a place,
um,
which was wonderful,
um,
and now a lot of those places are gone to 16 is gone and,
um,
Escafe had moved around to a number of places and.
After the first couple of moves we uh we just kind of
as you get older you don't go out as much you're trying to save your money um so
we kind of fell out of that
scene
but along the way we also met people who
um have become lifelong friends,
um,
so we have dinner parties and we get together and
they become our family and we check in with each other
on a regular basis and these are
um.
Uh,
queer people and,
um,
straight people,
um,
and we really have a a nice
sort of,
uh,
family outside of our own
blood family,
um.
Yeah.
Nice,
um,
if this is too personal,
then,
you know,
feel free to say it is,
but I'm,
I'm curious about when you came out and I'm also curious about
what it was like to come out in the Mennonite.
Sure,
um,
yeah,
so I think I've always known that I was gay,
always,
um.
And
Growing up Mennonite,
it was,
it was something
that was not acceptable.
Um,
and so,
uh,
as a high schooler I told my parents,
I told some friends,
and,
um,
it,
uh,
that again was not received well
and I didn't receive it well,
um,
but always wanted to be the right thing and do the right thing,
so,
um.
The elders in my church.
Had me come to their house um
one evening and
did the whole kind of
um
pray the gay away and
cast
demons out and I really thought
that I had
that sort of thing in me it was very traumatic um.
But
um.
In my twenties,
I was able to
kind of see that
a lot of that sort of thing was just false
and
um.
Not,
not what I wanted to do.
So,
um,
I,
I came out and it was right at the time that I moved to DC
so I was beginning to really experience a lot of
culture um
shifting in my own life and my experiences
and um.
I got a nasty letter from my church.
I had been a member,
um,
I was very active in the Mennonite church
at home in Illinois,
and I got a letter that um said that my membership had been revoked.
No one had ever even talked to me in the church,
so that was really hurtful to me.
Um,
I know my parents were struggling,
um,
my parents also were,
uh,
divorcing at the time.
I think that also allowed me to,
um.
I held them up in a lot of esteem,
and when they they decided to divorce,
I,
I kind of
really questioned
everything and I think in that questioning process.
I was able to find
myself
um and some answers.
So,
um,
I'm no longer a Mennonite and I value a lot
of the things that I learned in the Mennonite Church.
The Mennonite Church,
I think grapples like the Methodist Church,
um,
with
gays and lesbians and sort of what to do with them,
um.
I,
um,
they.
My senior year,
um,
when I was living in in
Washington,
Eastern men and I brought these reparative therapy,
um,
folks,
um,
to talk to the student population and,
um,
a friend of mine who was out at the time,
um,
and I went and talked to our president of the university to to
see if we could stop it and there was a lot of.
Um,
things being written in the,
the student newspaper and um,
so there was some protests that happened,
um,
and I think that opened some eyes,
um,
I'm not really close to anyone who I was friends with at Eastern Mennonite,
um.
I think part of that is just with time but also because I came out
as I did
um
I had been engaged to a woman,
um.
Pretty close to then when I all of this.
Um,
turmoil started to occur.
So it was,
I'm,
I'm glad I'm passed all of that,
um,
it was really difficult to,
to go through,
um,
and I think the Mennonite Church is much more welcoming
and um.
I think it's because of things
like that that had happened
to people that I knew,
but
I'm not
particularly close
to the Meite church.
Have you joined another faith.
I have not.
I think I've lost my faith
because of that experience,
which is fine,
um.
Yeah,
I don't I feel like I have um.
I'm a spiritual person,
um,
but it's a mystery to me.
And,
and there's there's other ways that I,
I find,
um.
There's other things and experiences that feed my soul and feel feed my spirit,
um,
and those are friends and the arts and being a gardener and the nature and
um
those kinds of things.
Did,
did you,
I'm curious that when you were in college,
aside from the
Administration bringing in reparative therapy people,
um,
did you feel a pushback from your fellow students or was it a comfortable,
how comfortable was it going through college?
a night school.
You know,
um.
I from in my experience,
um,
I think being.
Being gay and knowing that I was gay and being told that it was the wrong thing to to be,
I think that breeds a lot of insecurity.
So that's an insecurity that I I hold all the time with
with myself,
um,
and so I,
I'm able to find
the people who
are accepting.
I'm uh I'm mag there's a magnet there I'm,
I'm drawn to those folks,
um,
and so that's one way I think I protect myself,
um.
But there is nothing necessarily really overt,
no
overt kind of persecution,
but I think in the culture in general,
you just kind of get a sense of what you should be and what you shouldn't.
Um,
uh,
I think a lot of that is changing.
I see that in students,
um.
In Charlottesville
in the schools,
um.
I think there's a lot of
um.
Room for growth in that area,
but I do,
I do see some changes,
um,
and I see some really brave,
um,
students
that I work with.
Yeah,
it's inspiring.
That's good to know.
I'm curious,
since you've been in Charlesville now,
not quite 20 years,
but
how is the community changed that you've seen,
if at all,
specifically the LGBTQ community.
Well,
I don't know if I have a lot of authority to speak on that,
but um
that never stops me.
Um,
I think it's,
I think we're kind of a fragmented community.
LGBT community,
I don't think there's um.
I don't know if there's ever been like a particular center,
but I feel like maybe the the bars that were around brought people together.
Under pressure
and that pressure I think has gone in some ways which is a good thing
but um
you know we're we're all different
and how do you bring a lot of different people together um I feel like
we are more integrated into
um
regular mainstream
society
and I like that
I think that's a that's a a good thing,
um.
I
have been recently attending these get out Charlottesville
events um that have been popping up.
Um,
I've been to two
and.
Um,
when I've gone to the last one I went to,
I was,
I looked around the room and there were tons of people and I,
I was really amazed,
um,
by
how many people were
there together,
um.
Yeah,
so I think that was remarkable,
um,
but I don't know,
I don't know how people live their daily lives,
um,
honestly.
Could you talk a little bit about
it's no longer here.
I maybe went twice.
Talk about the club Club 216.
You,
you all went a bit before it.
Sure,
well,
so,
um,
the fir my first experience with that space,
I don't know if it was called Club 216,
it might have been.
Called something like the silver fox,
is that right?
So,
um,
when I I was visiting Darren's family,
my husband's family,
and we came in to meet a high school friend of his,
um,
and
we
drove and parked in a parking lot
that is where the ice rink.
Maybe it was or maybe it's where the I think the parking lot is where
Violet Crown is now which is across the street from this on Water Street.
Um,
and
I remember we sat in the car,
we,
we didn't go,
no,
we sat in the car
for a while and then we decided we were gonna go in,
so it was a kind of a big deal to,
um,
we're gonna go to this gay bar in in Charlottesville,
um.
And of course we had been in
places in DC at times it wasn't that big of a deal,
but so we,
we walked up to the door and we learned that it was a membership only
kind of thing so we didn't go in at that time
and then um when we moved here.
We did go and I think we bought a membership
you'd walk up those stairs,
um,
you buy your membership or you find somebody who would
sponsor you for the for the evening to go in,
um.
You know,
there was a couple of rooms.
There was a dance space,
and we like to dance and so we do
a lot of dancing and um.
Stay up late and
yeah.
That was that was a Saturday night or
um or a Friday night and
that's what that's what we would do.
And the club was well attended,
wasn't it or was it?
Yes,
oh yeah,
there was always a lot of people there
and actually it started to become more and more popular.
I think there'd be lines that would
wrap around.
It was one of the places that could stay
stay open later than 2 o'clock,
so I think when a lot of the other bars downtown would um.
When they would close,
um,
people would
look for another place to go,
the after after party.
And that was not always um the LGBT community was
there's a lot of
others as well looking to.
Keep the party going.
Yeah,
can you talk a little bit about,
I know it's close to,
but,
and we are pro we are going to interview Todd,
yeah,
talk about your experience at Escafe or what Escafe was like the years that you were.
So I was going to Escafe when it,
um,
was right there by the Omni,
um,
and it was one room,
um,
and you'd walk in.
It was very narrow is the,
the paintings,
the murals were painted up there um.
And
it was.
Just kind of a wild raucous place.
People were having fun.
There's lots of great music,
um,
the drinks were good.
It was very crowded,
it was hard to find a place to sit,
um,
just a really joyful fun
place.
And then they added on to a room next to it which expanded it and
opened up the bar,
um,
and,
you know,
it was easy to fill there's lots of people there.
Um,
and then
it closed.
Or it moved over to where OSA was,
and in that move,
I think we went a couple times,
but at that point we were
sort of winding down our night night time.
Uh,
forays,
so,
um.
Yeah,
and that always seemed really busy as well.
But we,
we really didn't go
too much.
I think you've already answered this,
but um,
why,
why do you think there isn't,
there is not a dedicated.
Gay and lesbian space or bar or restaurant really anymore.
Well,
I
I think I feel welcome in almost every space
and you see um.
What's really comforting to me is to when we have our pride events
here in Charlottesville,
you see all the downtown businesses um posting support
and window displays and so it's it seems like
Charlottesville.
Is the center,
um,
is the welcoming space for
our community
and I think people.
Whether you identify as LGBTQ or not,
we're all together
um and I like that I think that's um
you know,
I feel,
um,
because I also feel like I am part of that larger community.
I think we are
in this all together,
um.
For all of our differences,
yeah.
That's good
Yeah,
I was wondering if you could talk about your experience within the school system,
and you mentioned a few students are very brave,
and
I was wondering
if attitudes
have changed in the school system or you've seen a change in
how students are are being more brave or have.
A sense of security to do that or
just how it's changed over the years?
Well,
I see a lot of trans students
in the programs um that I serve,
um,
and
a lot of trans students
and
I,
I just didn't see that,
um,
when I first started working for the division.
I'm also now working with older students,
so maybe that's part of it,
um,
that I'm seeing.
Um,
But I see that
there are really brave students who um in
our diversity assemblies will stand up and talk about
queer issues
and
queer pride and
um.
And are able to to do that in on stage in front of the entire school body.
Um,
I think that's impressive
and.
Um,
our division,
our school division is working,
um,
tirelessly to really,
um,
remove obstacles and make people feel welcome
because we have,
uh,
we have
people from really all over the world from refugee backgrounds,
people who have lived here,
people in poverty,
people with great opportunity we're all here,
um,
and.
And you see that in the schools,
um.
Yeah.
Is there
a
somewhere where you hope that the school system moves or the
school system is trying to move in a certain direction,
but it's not quite there yet.
Um,
I do,
but not in regards to the LGBT community.
I mean,
I think we have a lot to,
um,
work through in terms of,
um,
People who have opportunities and
those who don't,
and the disparities between that,
um,
I think that's our major work
everywhere.
Uh,
in particularly in the schools,
mhm.
In regards to LGBTQ issues.
Uh,
what is Charlottesville look like as compared to
either DC or the rest of the country or
Albemarle County or.
I went to Western High School.
I,
again,
I don't really know.
I don't know um
how it compares.
I,
I know it feels like a great place for me to live.
Um,
I think,
um.
I think we have something special.
I think we can always improve
with what we're doing,
um.
But it's,
it's wonderful to have a pride organization,
um,
and it's wonderful to be able to be in that public space the way that we are
um with the resources that we have here,
um.
Um,
We,
uh,
you know,
I don't know if you can compare it to DC,
which has many,
many,
many more people,
um.
But this is a great place to live,
I think,
um,
and I don't think we're perfect,
but I think it's a,
it's a nice place to be.
Is there any sort of
message or
wisdom you you would like for the
students that you see here or to take with them?
Well,
I think in general wisdom is that um.
I think it's important to
um
to be yourself and to um
keep trying when you make mistakes and to forgive yourself and to love other people
and uh to love yourself.
Yeah,
I think those are good things to live by.
Yeah.
I'm curious if um and Erin keeping an eye on the time it's 8:22.
Are you OK for a few more minutes
um.
Given
The somewhat tumultuous political and social
environment around us
at this point.
Do you have any fears or are you hopeful for the future?
I do.
I have a lot of fears.
I have a lot of fears about our current president and um.
The
the Republican Party
in general,
um,
and.
I feel like there's um.
Efforts to roll back a lot of the progress,
um.
It was
really important and um an incredible feeling for me to be able to legally marry
um
my husband,
um.
And it was
more profound than I expected it to be.
We had been together for such a long time
that when we were
able to finally marry,
um,
I,
I didn't anticipate
at that.
That I would,
um,
that it would be so meaningful,
um,
in a deep level,
but,
um,
we got married,
we got married here in our house,
in our yard and.
Having,
you know,
my parents and his parents and his family and our friends all together.
And really just to be celebrated for who we were was really incredible,
um.
And I also remember that feeling when uh
Barack Obama was elected president that was also the same year that the
Virginia passed into law and the Constitution that um
uh
uh.
The
the limit the
uh prohibiting
gays and lesbians from getting married,
and that
felt like a punch
to the gut.
So,
um.
I don't know.
I,
I fear that things could change,
I because I like
what
freedoms I have now and enjoy here and
um so I fear that
maybe public opinion
can change,
um,
and I'd hate to see that.
I don't,
I don't think that would happen.
Here in Charlottesville,
but um,
gosh,
I don't know,
you know,
around the country,
um,
yeah,
that's a fear.
I don't wanna end on a bad note.
Um,
let me just ask one other and again jumping,
um,
since you've been in the school system for a while,
attitude and you've addressed,
you know,
you're positive about what's happening in school and grave.
Have you seen the student body?
Change in terms of,
I mean you do have people who are brave and coming out and talking
but has kind of the general attitude in the student body changed?
Have you,
do you see more acceptance
um over the years?
So I,
um,
it really wasn't something that was discussed or talked about in the elementary
level,
um.
Really,
honestly,
and that is where my
interface with the student body
has been,
um,
and my interaction with the,
um,
I,
I just don't see it being
really
too much of an issue,
um.
I,
I hear
my 5th and 6th grade students,
um,
at times,
um.
Talking,
I,
well,
they walk into
uh the classroom with uh all means y'all are y'all means all but pride shirts.
I see my students at the pride events.
Um,
I,
uh,
recently had an,
uh,
at an exhibit,
um,
I'm meeting parents and I see all the these,
these parents have same sex sex parents
coming in,
so,
um,
and many more than I expected,
um,
so
I,
I.
I just see it
being a pretty open
and accepting
place,
um,
both in the administration and in the student population.
That's good to know.
Anything else,
Erin,
that you wanna
say or a story you wanna tell or a comment or you've been very,
by the way.
Oh,
thank you,
and I,
I must say I love your story about.
Getting married.
Yes,
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it was a wonderful time.
Yeah.