OK.
Can you just tell us a little bit of your
background and how you got to Charlottesville and UVA?
Sure,
I grew up in Stanton,
born and raised there,
and I always wanted to go to UVA.
It's my first choice
and
uh was thrilled when I got into UVA so.
Came here right after high school and spent 4 years,
then I was gone for 2 years working in private
industry and then came back to accept a job at UVA
and I've been working here now for 30 years.
Can you tell us a bit about what you've been doing for?
Sure,
my,
uh,
when I graduated from college,
I was a retail buyer for Belk Leggett and,
uh,
became a buyer at UVA and always like to mention that even when I was
working as a buyer elsewhere,
it never occurred to me that.
UVA had buyers um
and a friend of mine said what did you just think all the stuff just showed up
on its own I mean someone's gotta order
it negotiate the contracts that sort of thing so
so I worked first for the medical center
and then later switched to the academic division
and um got my MBA part time and then moved up.
Into other jobs along the way
and uh
it's it's been a good ride it's been a good good career here.
So when did you uh so you diversity has kind of been your area correct?
Well,
it it it has,
but that's not been my focus.
So I,
I worked in purchasing,
I worked in a couple of different vice president's office,
our Oracle implementation and my official title
now as assistant vice president for compliance.
So I,
I
work with units on focusing on all the,
the federal,
state and regulatory requirements that we have to follow.
So some of those include diversity
initiatives,
but we go way beyond what we're required to do by the federal government
and so my diversity work sort of
came about as more of an extracurricular activity so I.
Credit it really with Yokan Reynolds who is
our retired uh vice president and chief financial
officer and at the time that the diversity
council was first created at the university.
Each VP was picking someone to represent their area
and she picked me and I thought it was it
was and so I was a little bit surprised and even asked her that as a as a minority female
leader at the university why did she pick me and she said because I felt like we
were going to cover those areas well and she
didn't want the LGBT community to be left out
so she's very strong ally and a real mentor for me
so
so that's really what started it and then.
Marcus Martin,
who chairs the diversity council.
A uh created the LGBT committee as a subcommittee of the
diversity council and it was the first time the university had
an officially recognized group
to focus on issues of importance to to the LGBT community,
and I can't talk about that without mentioning that there had been UVA
pride and created a sort of a grassroots effort for many years.
It was employees who got together.
To
try to make some changes and move some things forward,
but they didn't have any official university
sanctioning or support.
It was,
it was I think it was more of a.
How do we get things done?
Who will listen to us,
who,
who supports us and and and who doesn't?
And so I give them a lot of credit for the doors that they opened and
I was fortunate to step in
when the university finally got to the point that it created
an official committee dedicated to this kind of work,
and I've chaired it since 2011 when it was created and that's when it was created,
yes yeah.
Could you talk a bit about the university within and within the larger community,
the LGBTQ community,
both within the university
and perhaps outside and your experience or how you might
have seen it 30 years ago and how it's changed?
Yeah,
I,
well,
again I went here as a student,
so
I
did not feel
safe being out
um for for most of that time we had the gay student union.
Um,
as it was known at the time,
later became the Lesbian and Gay Student Union before the Queer Student Union,
uh,
became its official name,
but I was not that comfortable being out.
I,
during my time here I came out to friends
and,
uh,
but I didn't,
I regret not being involved in the gay student union at the time.
But I remember even as an employee when I started here in 1989
being very
aware of the fact that I knew I could be fired in
the state of Virginia for being gay and so I didn't want
to arrive here
being that new gay guy who works in purchasing I wanted to be
the new good employee,
the new person who's
fun to work with and then thought I'd come out later.
And
And when I mentioned that I knew I could be fired in 1989,
I think it's worth pointing out that you can still be fired today,
um,
due to your gender identity or sexual orientation in
Virginia and I believe it's about 30 other states,
it's the majority of states that have no legal protection.
But what was
Memorable for me was that in 1991,
the university added sexual orientation to its non-discrimination policy
and so
while
doing something like that doesn't make all the problems go away,
it does.
Set the right tone and it it's important to know that
it was a recognized class,
a protected class,
and that if something happened to me.
Solely on the basis of my soul,
uh my sexual orientation I felt protected for the first time
and it really
empowered me to come out to more people at work
and I've been.
Pretty out ever since,
I think the the.
It just sort of uh evolved over time and then
one of the things I had to think about
very briefly really when I became chair of the LGBT committee
was the fact that I was suddenly going to be very out
and speaking in front of groups.
Representing the LGBT community to senior leadership
and so if there was anyone left who
didn't know I was gay already they were about to find out and so I,
I did sort of pause for a minute but decided
I was comfortable doing that and I think it it
was one of those times where I felt like if I don't do this who's going to do it?
Someone needs to do it,
someone who works.
With our senior leaders already,
someone who's been here for a while
and can bring perspective as a student and a and an employee and that's
how it happened.
I don't is that?
No is that
not?
Um,
it is what it is.
These mics are pretty localized in terms of that
one's very directional and the one is low.
OK,
all right,
just wanted to check.
It it might be my computer running and we can turn it off if
we I think it's coming up it's probably people in their offices it's coming,
I think for the air maybe yeah OK if Kelly's OK with it,
OK,
I just wanted to
so um.
Did you certainly in the early days,
uh,
when you were gradually coming out and when you
were when you took the helm of the committee,
did you feel any pushback at all or
what was,
what seemed to be the general atmosphere?
Yeah,
I think um.
Certainly when I started I heard
gay jokes and didn't say anything.
I didn't hear anything overtly,
uh,
negative about the LGBT community,
but
it was clear that it was it I didn't know other gay people certainly
and
I didn't feel like it was safe to come out.
Both from a not just a legal protection in my job sort of space but
because there weren't other out gay people it
it I felt like I would be alone in doing that and so I wasn't comfortable
at first doing that
but I have to say when I finally did come out to
my first boss I had a very positive experience and I was,
I was pleasantly surprised and
at that point he said,
you know,
I don't really care.
I care that you come to work on time and do a good job and you know.
What you do in your private life is your private
life and thank you for telling me and I,
I,
it was a it was a surprisingly positive experience and I have to say that I've been
really fortunate with the supervisors I've had
um over time.
That I haven't had one that was really
bad
that they've been
better some have been better than others
um but no one that was that was very
negative and I've been promoted to different positions being out
and
when uh one job in particular is actually when I
went to work for Yok on who I mentioned before.
I made a point of bringing it up in the interview.
I was in a job working for a different vice president.
I liked my job,
but this was an opportunity for advancement.
So,
but I wasn't willing to leave a good situation for a questionable one.
So I just,
I was the one who put it out there and said I want you to know
about this,
and,
um,
and she had a very positive reaction and I got the job and
didn't underestimated what an ally she was at the time because I didn't know her.
Good.
Yeah,
that's nice to hear.
How about,
how about in recent years,
um,
what's the univer have you seen changes
here at the university?
I have,
um,
so some of the things that our our committees
worked on is we um we developed a welcome reception
for incoming faculty and staff and certainly UVA Pride,
the grassroots group had done that in the past but they had no funding so the
the the people who put it together were
each bringing something to bring to the reception.
It was um
No budget for anything like that.
Um,
so we,
we did,
we did that,
we created a website,
we took on the,
the listserve there had been a listserve,
um,
uh,
email
addresses so that we could communicate with people.
We,
uh,
we saw the development of this
this LGBTQ center for students
and so partnered with them on some
some programming and some work together
and I think one of the early.
Things that we tried to work on was revisiting our our non-discrimination policy
because while it had included sexual orientation for a number of years.
It did not include gender identity until 2014,
so the university was actually pretty early in
in adding sexual orientation and late in
adding gender identity.
So
in 1981
it was added because President Casin added it.
And there there was not a vote there wasn't a debate
about it he he just did it and he got,
he got some flack for it and has talked to
me about it later that that wasn't um widely accepted
as the right thing to do but he thought it was the right thing to do so he added it
and then in 2014 we were successful in getting gender identity added
to the non-iscrimination policy and then we worked on our health plan
both for faculty and staff and for students so that now it covers.
The full spectrum of trans health needs at
at the time it only covered counseling services
but then we um over time got the plan.
Change to include
not only hormonal treatments but surgical options so certainly with
deductibles and everything else that goes along with it,
but it was something that that that was added.
That's pretty impressive.
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
I know you can't dive into the
logistics.
Yeah,
well,
um.
We had tried like uh I think the other effort that we had worked on a lot was domestic
partner benefits and I think that's the biggest effort
that we spent the most amount of time on that
failed or that never
came to fruition and it was because of
state laws that prohibited that
um
kind of benefit to
to people and when when the marriage
amendment happened it included domestic partner,
um.
It included domestic partner
kinds of protections and other contractual arrangements that
would
attempt to replicate marriage,
not the exact wording,
but something like that.
And so there were people who were questioning whether that prohibited us
from doing this,
but unfortunately
the
the people in the in the right positions were pretty across
the board that it it meant that we couldn't do anything,
including the attorney general's office,
and I think by the time we were ready
as an institution for that it was a time when Ken
Cuccinelli was our attorney general and he was not going to be
favorable for something like that.
Um,
but then
later,
um.
We had a.
Terry McAuliffe added.
In the state's protection for state employees,
he added gender identity for the first time and so we were able
to take that and use that as a catalyst to get our policy changed
and the benefit there being that uh
if
if a future governor doesn't include it in his or her.
Non-discrimination policy,
it's now part of what the university has in place.
And that can't be
uh
taken back.
Um,
I mean unless an attorney general somehow says we don't have the right to to
to do that,
um,
that's what it would take,
but
that's how it works now.
Let me ask you a
weird question.
So the vein of
well.
This
Irritating and painful thing over the years for not just for the LGBTQ community,
but
the good old song.
Oh,
yeah.
Uh,
and I,
so I
talk about
that a bit
and
yeah.
Um,
yeah,
you do,
do you know what I'm talking about?
Yes,
OK.
Yeah,
I always hate to talk about it.
With new people because I kinda have to tell them what it is first and
you're sort of teaching people how to do something you don't want them to do but
um if
if it's not obvious to whoever might be watching this someday there's a
there's a portion in the
the UVA good old song.
That the lyric says we come from old Virginia,
we're all as bright and gay,
and there's a natural pause in the song after that
and for years there have been people who shouted not gay.
And
um in more recent years they uh I've
I've observed this myself and heard from students that
they're not saying that as much anymore they're saying
something else and I guess I can use profanity on this,
but they're saying F tech,
the F word in tech,
so
which is
slightly better but it's still not,
it's still not,
uh,
mature,
it's not professional,
it's not well it's not the image the university should be conveying.
And
So there have been efforts over the years to try to
point that out as an issue and get people to stop saying the chant.
And
there was a a student movement where they were handing out stickers
at football games to try to get people to stop doing it
and some people just took the stickers and stuck it on the
brick and it made a big mess at the stadium so that that
that for that reason it didn't go over well
and so I've seen it kind of go up and down over the years.
Our committee took this on
as an issue
maybe 6 years ago
and we
ran some ads in the alumni magazine
and in the football game day program.
Stating that it's time to put an end to the not gay chant.
And it generated a lot of interesting
feedback to us and even letters to the editor to the alumni news magazine.
And that the alumni,
uh,
some of them were saying the students who are doing this
should be expelled
or.
They're just kids.
It's just a stupid thing to do.
Leave them alone
or.
When it came,
but students were saying it's not us,
it's the alumni saying it
so no one wants to own
the fact that they are the ones saying it
and then you'd get them together to talk about it
and they decide it was the it was the townies,
it was the locals in Charlottesville and and so I mean I've observed it enough to
confidently say that everyone,
every one of those groups has said it,
it's not the majority of the people but it's
something that people have done for for years.
And so I think it
um that sort of helped there was a a social media campaign there were ads there were
uh there have been many
articles about it in the Cavalier Daily
and and it started to go down a little bit we did see um this F tech chant
come in its place,
but we still hear it and even,
even when we were,
we were hearing from students it doesn't happen.
There was a
a lawn resident who filmed a snowball fight on the lawn,
so it snowed and and all the the lawn
residents and other students were having fun in the snow
and they all stopped and went on the stairs of the rotunda to sing the good old song
and
it was uh it was a gay
male student who was filming it
and
while he was filming it the the students on the stairs were very clearly
saying not gay.
And it was kind of jarring to him to because he hadn't really experienced it so
so it happens at um
uh at football games at Final Exercises.
I was at Final Exercises this past year
and
heard our graduates
saying FTA.
It was the first time that I'd heard that instead
of the instead of the the not gay chant so.
You know,
people ask me am I offended by it?
I I I'm not personally offended.
It doesn't make me cry when I hear it or anything.
I,
I just think it's stupid,
but what
when it really
bothered me
was when we had an athletic team that was doing very well
and you could see them on TV.
You can hear that
and if we're on ESPN and people are tuning in from across the country,
it's,
and they're hearing that,
you know.
Um,
it,
it also happened when
there was,
uh,
after a basketball game they were interviewing one
of our players and there were students swaying
back and forth in the background and they were singing it and you could clearly hear,
hear the not gay chant then too.
And that's when it bothered me because it's
sending a message to prospective student athletes,
students,
faculty and staff
across the country that maybe this isn't such a welcoming
place for the LGBT community and that hasn't been my experience
so that's what really bothers me about it.
So we haven't given up on that one and you'll you'll be
hearing more about some uh renewed interest and efforts to try to.
Take a look at that.
Well,
now you've talked a bit about how the university is adjusted in the
very possible way to acceptance and protecting so how do you,
how do you think
the student body in general
has
changed as far as acceptance,
um,
and attitudes towards diversity
over the years?
It's been interesting.
I think what I see more of now is.
Not there's certainly some very strong
allies
in the in the student community.
We have students who run the gamut of they came out in 8th grade and their parents
threw them a party and they were thrilled
and everything's been great and so they come here
um
expecting
resources and and services and and acceptance.
We have other students who come out while they're here and we still have,
uh,
students who have very negative experiences,
uh,
when coming out and so I,
when I've talked to friends about the LGBTQ center they're they
they
sometimes they'll say,
well,
do you even need that anymore?
I mean,
aren't students today really fine with this and they don't care.
I,
I will the other thing I would add is that I think I've seen
a huge increase in the number of students who really
don't
care one way or the other or the other about your sexual orientation.
And when I speak to student groups I I usually ask
them how many of you grew up in a household with
a gay parent or sibling or an aunt or a cousin
or you know the the guy who lives next door and
I'm surprised at how many hands go up so many
of them grew up with a gay family member or friend
and
so it means that they they just don't care about it so much but.
We did have um
students who had very negative experiences and I remember
one in particular who came out to his family
and had a few family members boycott his
graduation as a result they refused to attend,
which is hard to imagine and
uh a parent and a couple of siblings who didn't come
and uh we still have that.
I have a couple of other questions.
Was there anything um.
How about with the transgender and gender not conforming?
Um,
we have seen an increase in,
in,
uh,
trans and gender nonconforming students.
I think a couple of things that that are are worth mentioning.
One is
the,
um,
in,
in housing there are some open housing options,
um,
where,
uh,
in our apartment style
housing where they can,
uh,
students can re uh request to live together
if there's there's some.
Student residences that have.
Um,
private rooms with a private bath and so we can make those accommodations,
especially if a student is transitioning,
that might be something that they would prefer to have.
The other thing
that um
that we've been that we worked on was signage for our
all all gender restrooms and talked about what the sign should look like
and and got away from the binary symbols we didn't want to use the
half man half woman symbol that that none of us liked.
And instead just use sort of a cartoon version of a toilet on the sign so that
that's what the purpose of the room is and that's when and put all gender restroom as
sort of our standard and so those those signs are are popping up in new buildings and
as buildings are renovated or as a department requests
it that's sort of our standard signage now.
And the students took that a step further by creating a map and even an app
so that
students can find where those restrooms are.
We didn't,
we didn't go out and change restrooms there were single stall restrooms
all around grounds already,
but we just gave them
more standard signage and and collected where they're located.
So there's signs like you there,
excuse me,
there are restrooms like you would see in your local Starbucks or on an airplane
or even in your own home that just one person at a time can use.
So I think
seeing some things like that has really
has really helped students,
but um.
They've continued.
Since I think as a community,
the trans community has been an overlooked.
segment of the LGBT community,
it was important to me
that we
that we worked on things like our non-discrimination policy and and uh.
Insurance and and things like that.
What about using the uh
Restroom that aligns with your gender identity rather than uh
all gender restroom.
Yeah,
I mean again I think because
we have a policy that says that
gender identity is covered by our non discrimination policy that has been
our policy that you use the restroom that that you need to use
and if we've,
I'm not aware of issues
with it but I've um talked to some of my colleagues
other places when they've had questions about it that's been the answer
and so um.
I think we've been fortunate that there hasn't been a
major issue with that like there has been some places.
Are there any
stories or things you wanna talk about or tell us about?
um.
Anything else you
want to add to the conversation?
Um,
do you think that you just think people should know,
or you'd like to get out?
Yeah,
I think one other one other.
Involvement that our committee has had is,
is in thinking about
how
we include gender identity and sexual
orientation on our demographic information.
So when we when we do a survey.
We wanted to see those kinds of questions
added to the demographic section of a survey
and not not to ask a lot of questions about being gay or being trans or whatever
but just to ask for those those pieces of
information like we would ask about race or ethnicity
or
um
gender,
age,
all sorts of things so that when we
get information back from faculty or staff or students
about their satisfaction with the university.
That we're we're able to to
get at the data and see whether the LGBT
community answers those questions in a different way so um
for example with faculty there are questions about
how,
how much
they feel a part of their department,
how likely they are to want to continue to work here in 5 years
or 10 years or their overall satisfaction and we can look at that data
to see where their differences are
and.
When we,
when the first time we did that was in a faculty senate survey and
we're pleased to see that there were not significant differences in how.
Um
The LGBT community answered those questions from the rest of the population.
The the significant stand out was in employee benefits,
and this was at the time that we were not offering
domestic partner benefits and same-sex marriage was not legal in Virginia.
So that was
that stood out.
It it we kind of knew that already,
so it didn't come as a surprise,
but it was
surprising to see that there weren't significant differences and I and I
should add that.
Some of the people who received the survey
then kind of questioned the anonymity of the survey and they were,
there were still some concerns about should I answer this question or not and
and.
Who will see this information and is there any way it can be
um
tied back to me?
And we also ask the question now in our,
our student.
Applications for admission so that we can send them resources before they arrive
and that's been a more,
a more recent addition as well.
And then I'd say one other area we haven't touched on is the medical center
and
I think the medical center has done a uh has really put forth a lot of effort
in recent years to focus on the experience of the trans patient
at at uh our our medical center
and
we we wanna make sure that if they have a good experience
working with their endocrinologist or something that's
more specific to their trans healthcare.
That they have a similar
experience if they need eye surgery or an appendectomy or something
that has nothing to do with their with their gender identity,
so
the medical center is working on
um getting.
Both
uh uh
gender identity and sexual orientation added as
fields into their medical record system.
Putting an emphasis on use of preferred name which is going to benefit not just
trans patients but that patient whose name is William but prefers to go by Bill
and um.
We're using outside surveys or outside instruments to look.
not only the experience of the trans patient but the but the or the LGBT patient
but and the LGBT student and we're using national.
Surveys and scoring mechanisms to see how we're stacking up
and getting a list of really best practices for the things
that we should be doing and saying what aren't we
doing and what can we add how do we get there
and we've done that with both patients and students so I can I can mention
the progress there when we first did this,
this um human rights campaign health equality index
for the LGBT community of patients.
Our first score was a 60 out of 100,
and I really credit the the leadership of the
medical center for being willing to do that,
knowing that there was work to do and
knowing that our initial score wouldn't be that great
and um
since we first started it our our last score was a 95 out of 100
and there's still more to do
and
we're we're focused there but having the right policies
and programs and and sharing our our our trends.
Services that are available and and and training people and understanding that
someone may have a a spouse or a partner of the same gender
is is helpful and it it's it's going to take time.
There are many people working at the university
and it's not to say that you're everyone's
gonna have a great experience with every employee
but that's our goal and we're we're moving closer
and then with students we we had similar.
Sorts of
criteria that we were working through making sure
that we have the right policies in place and
we have that's a completely different rating um
uh.
And our score there is 4.5 out of 5 stars is how that one works
and um
it with this last round last year named the
the best college or university in Virginia for LGBT students again based on that
instrument
it's it's um
and I like using those because it's something that we
that allows us to compare ourselves to our peers.
It gives us
an outline of where we want to be and how we can
how we can continue to be even better than we are,
but um we,
we still have work to do
there we we wanna get,
get the 5 star rating from them.
We want 100 on the
on the health equality index,
but
there there's been surprisingly little push back
in making the kinds of improvements that we wanted to make to
to enhance those scores.
That's good to know.
So would you say that the medical center here is kind of the head of other
centers or?
Well,
I,
I think in some ways I think um
I think having this change to the system
and and rolling out some training will be important
and um.
Certainly our our
our patient experience office is looking at
surveys and feedback that we get from patients
and if they run into a problem they're taking it seriously and
and and we appreciate that feedback because we
we don't want any of our patients to leave
with a bad experience whether they're LGBT or not
and um so they take they take complaints
and concerns seriously and and address them so
I think.
I think it's been a real turning point,
and I do think that,
you know,
when you look at the.
The scores for Virginia there are we are we are ranked near the top
of as far as having the right policies and programs in place and and
um
yeah there there's work to do but I think I'm really proud of how
how much better the experience has become.
Shifting tax.
OK.
How did you meet your husband?
Ah,
OK.
Sure,
yeah,
this is a story I tell,
um.
Uh,
when I do
panel discussions for students or something,
so
we met.
I was working in retail,
even in,
in high school and college,
but he came into a store where I was working
in Stanton.
And
he came in as a customer and was shopping around
and I.
Saw him come in and there was this immediate attraction
so I went to help him and be extra helpful
and annoying.
I didn't know if
if he was interested or if he was gay or whatever but I just sort of.
Hung around with them and
He was looking for a sweater that we didn't have in his size so
I was trying to think quickly and as he was leaving I said well
we'll be getting some more sweaters and so why don't you give me your name and
your phone number and I'll call you when we're getting when we get more sweaters in.
And
Thinking I was some kind of big gay player or something,
uh,
that this would this would happen but
I just chickened out and didn't call him
and just used that information to find out where he lived and where he worked and
what kind of car he drove and
sounded more like a
a
a little bit of stalking going on but.
Um,
found out that he
managed a bar and worked as the bartender every other Saturday and so
then I just happened to go there every other Saturday and it was,
it was actually a few years of that
of developing a friendship
and um hanging out at the bar and talking to him while he worked and um
so it it it took a while for it to happen but um
we've been we on our 30th anniversary as a couple we got married
um shortly after it became legal in Virginia.
And so that's been uh almost 35 year
relationship.
Thank you.
No one's more surprised than we are.
I think because it didn't seem like,
so growing up that didn't,
that wasn't,
that never seemed like an option
and I kind of felt like
coming out
in the 80s,
you give up certain things,
you,
you know that you're not gonna join the military,
you're not gonna get married,
you're not gonna have children,
you're not gonna be able to be out at work or find a church that will be
affirming.
And accepting of you
for the person you are and
it's been rewarding to see that change and
I can't say that I can check off all those boxes and problems solved but it's
much better than it used to be and you can do all of those things.
It doesn't mean that they're easy,
but it's possible
and because we also have a 10 year age difference.
I think the 10 year age difference and the
same sex relationship
starting in the 80s,
we even had friends who said,
you know this is never gonna last,
right?
And
And I don't think I was convinced that it was ever gonna last either,
but we just said well it works now and we'll see
how long
we'll just see how long it lasts.
I don't know
and um
and it's worked for us we've been fortunate.
Just out of curiosity,
do you feel,
and we're kind of off UVA,
but I don't,
OK,
no,
I'm fine.
Do you feel comfortable?
I do.
Oh,
not holding hands.
Uh,
I,
I think that's maybe more us in our age perhaps,
I don't know,
um,
but we have never been
um
comfortable
showing affection in public.
I think just sort of as a safety mechanism as a um.
I think we could probably walk on the downtown mall and hold hands and
mostly
be fine,
but we're not comfortable doing that.
And
and it was a fact that that came up in kind of an amusing way at our wedding.
Because we realized that even though we had a small wedding.
We,
um,
It was
different for us
to think about the fact that at the end of the ceremony we
would kiss each other in front of our family and friends and we.
Don't do that.
So
our minister
was laughing at us about this and uh she's a really
dear friend of ours uh we planned the wedding around her availability
because she was the only one we wanted to perform the
ceremony and she made us practice kissing in front of her.
Uh,
and
Um,
Allan even said do we have to do this?
and she said,
yes,
you have to do it,
it's required,
um,
although I don't think it really is,
but
so she made us practice it until we were comfortable
doing it.
So that's,
I think that's more us but as far as living here,
going out to eat,
whatever we do,
I don't think about it
and,
and I think maybe there's safety in being two men together.
Uh,
a little bit,
but um.
We did think about it when we bought a house
and
we looked at the house and there was an old couple living next door and we thought,
well,
I wonder what their reaction's going to be when two gay guys move in next door.
And on the first day we moved in,
our next door neighbor came over
with
a pie
that she baked and a a jar of preserve she made
and said I wanted to welcome you to the neighborhood and brought it over and then she
popped a key down on the counter and said I thought we should exchange keys
and we kind of looked at each other like is this real?
Um,
and so I think she sensed that we were surprised by that,
but she said we're next door neighbors and next
door neighbors need to watch out for each other.
So we gave her a key and
she gave us her key and uh.
She couldn't have,
I mean they couldn't have been better neighbors
and uh they've both since passed away but that was sort of our,
our experience uh
of when we moved to Charlottesville.
Does that contrast at all with satin?
Stanton's a little bit different in that
it's more conservative I think the thing that
helps us in Stanton is that we were both born and raised there and so
we still run into people from high school when when we're around so certainly our
neighbors knew we were a couple and people we went to high school with knew
so
I would feel less comfortable
holding hands.
I wouldn't do it here but I'd feel less comfortable there,
but I will say Stanton's gotten a lot more progressive.
Um,
over time it's not as
liberal as Charlottesville is,
but it's,
it's come a long way,
and
I remember being.
When the first time Obama was elected president was the first time Stanton,
the city of Stanton went majority
Democrat in a presidential election in my lifetime.
The last one was JFK.
Um,
and so,
uh,
Obama carried Stanton both times,
so did Hillary,
so but it's very,
very much a split,
um,
like they won by 51 52% of the vote,
so,
um.
So that is different.
All those people moving into this house.
Uh,
I guess that's what it is and
and.
Gary,
actually I do have one other UVA related question.
I won't keep you long,
where we should be wrapping up here,
but
even though you weren't out when you were a student here,
what was your awareness of was the gay student union going on then?
What was your awareness of what people were doing
in the community?
Yeah,
it was.
It was,
it was around,
there were dances in the basement of Newcomb or in one of the rooms in Newcomb Hall not
not the basement,
but sort of a um.
This,
I can't remember the name of the room,
but it's off to the off for the patio sort of in the middle there at Newcombe
and so they they had those there and actually
I learned more about what was going on from
my best friend so I had the same best friend growing up.
First grade all through high school and we went to UVA together and
he came out to me first
and.
So I learned more about what was happening from him
and
I was
in such denial that I didn't even come out to him when he told me about himself.
It took me a while
but
but he became more active in the in the community and
I and I found out more things from from him so
and then by you know by the time I graduated I was dating my now husband so um
that's how long we've been together so I didn't have
a lot of experience dating.
At the time,
but um.
And we had a,
we did have a gay bar in town even then,
um.
And maybe you've talked about this
chronology with other people who know it better than I do,
but yeah,
OK,
Moul Downey was the first one.
Yeah,
I heard,
I just heard he passed away in 216,
and I think it was called Triangles for a little while in between somewhere,
but yeah,
so,
so going there as a student was really eye opening because then I,
that is how I found out.
Who else was gay?
I would see other students and and it was this awkwardness of running into
somebody you knew but you kind of wondered if they were maybe they weren't
but um
that was really the only way to
to kind of know
at that point in time so
those uh those individuals and those
businesses played a really important role
in
providing a safe space for us to go and
and meet each other.
And and feel comfortable being who we were
so
I in the,
in the earlier years I I definitely did go and and Alan and I went
um often.
Um,
I think even Eastern Standard
in its old location was always very mixed.
And I always felt
very comfortable there as well,
so it's somewhere that we enjoyed going.
Uh,
one more,
um,
I don't.
I don't know that there's a strong basis for this question.
Um,
I didn't go to UVA and I've lived in Charlottesville on and off for a long time,
but
I,
I know that there
There are some tensions between townies and UVA folks,
but it seems to me that UVA is
extremely progressive within the state of Virginia in terms of protections and
um
Services provided to the LGBTQ community.
And I was wondering if you feel
that UA is is a leader for other businesses
in the area.
I
I think it is now,
I think it,
my frustration was that it didn't happen as quickly as I would have liked it
to happen.
I think sometimes things happen when
an organization or a person's ready for it and and
and it can't happen overnight
and so I,
I'm reminded of that when I talk to my,
to talk to our students
that I can,
you know,
I can look back 30 years and be happy to see the progress,
but
when I talk to students it's not enough for them to hear that
things are better than they were back in 1989 and they're like when?
Um,
so
they wanna see what's gonna change while they're here and,
and,
and that frustration
that they sometimes feel is really energizing to
to me to make sure that we're continuing to evolve and,
and certainly there are
problems that we need to
uh to work on but they're the exception rather than the norm and
so when I when I talk to someone who's having a bad experience.
There are lots of resources and lots of other people I can point them to
and I think as more and more people have been comfortable being out
in leadership positions
around grounds,
um,
both students and faculty and staff,
it's,
it's really important for
for our students I think to see people like them that they feel a connection to
that are that are
being successful and they're able to be out.
And um it it doesn't work that way everywhere but
I do think that that we do a really good job
and
and um
again and and in talking to my peers at at other institutions
um I feel good about where we are.
I think I also meant in addition to that
in terms of UVA being the largest employer in Charlottesville and so for example
changing the signage in just this building even to say
all gender starts a conversation with people who may not.
Otherwise that's right.
I,
I agree.
I think it,
I think it does,
it does open up conversations and,
and
it's a slow process.
Not,
not everyone is gonna be on board,
even,
even
students,
even parents of students or employees who come,
uh,
may not be,
uh,
a couple of things that we,
we've done
that,
that I really like one year
soon after the
the LGBTQ center opened for students,
that was where students had to go for new
new student orientation to register for their classes.
So that year we made every new student go into the LGBTQ center
to perform a task that they had to perform it while they were in Newcomb Hall and
they were all over the place so that's that's
the kind of thing that opens up conversations.
The first time we did a welcome reception for faculty and staff,
we
and we did this for a few years,
we sent it we sent the invitation to all new employees,
all
knowing that we were only going to get a small percentage of them to
want to attend.
And so
we got
um a handful of responses from people who were
so shocked that they were invited to this or even a how did you know kind of response
um other people who's the if we got any response,
the most common one was I think I'm on the wrong mailing list,
but I mean it was funny that most people were
really nice about it like please delete me I'm I
I shouldn't be on this mailing list.
Um,
and I only remember one person who
got offended and said
how dare you suggest that I am gay,
I'm not,
and you know it was that sort,
but,
but
I think those kinds of things start conversations and
and make people recognize that.
The LGBT community should be
a welcome and recognized part of the university community
and and uh so I have
two examples that I can think of that that I really like
um to sort of
normalize the
the discussion and the distinction.
That's good anything you want.
No,
I'm good.
Um,
let me see.
No,
I think we covered.
Things that I'd wanna cover,
um,
I'm glad we're involved in UVA,
I mean in Seville Pride and I'm sure you're talking about that and the.
How that's grown over the years so
it's exciting.
On Sunday we're interviewing the original board members too,
uh,
the 4 people,
Amy CR he's,
uh,
you're ready for this,
Buck and Julie Weed.
OK,
so just hear about how it forms,
yeah,
so we're kind of all over the place and Gary if there's anybody that you think.
Is essential for interviewing.
I'd certainly like to hear.
I mean we could interview a zillion people.
I'm looking or I think we're looking more for
the people who
kind of have an unusual story to tell or can,
you know,
can tell us about a section of the community that.
Um,
have you talked to Charlotte Patterson?
No,
but she's OK,
she,
she is,
she would be great in,
I think talking about the early years of UVA pride.
And
in what it's like to be.
A female faculty member
and an out faculty member when she arrived,
she was a faculty member when,
when I started working when I started when I went to school here,
so I believe she came in the 70s and
she,
she is the,
the chair of that,
yes,
and so um she was um.
Instrumental in getting that started,
I,
I'd say Claire Kaplan at the Women's Center is hopefully she's on the list.
And um there are a couple of other people that I
can think of that I'll I'll ask to see whether they're
they'd be up for this.
And we,
you know,
we're not gonna get to everybody,
um,
I mean we could interview for the next
2 years.
But I think Charlotte and Claire are probably the first two that
come to mind because they've been here for so
long and they're involved in the community it's not
and I I you know I'm sure you don't either.
I don't want this to be just about UVA but it's an important part of the story
and I think they could talk about um.
Uh,
Claire certainly from her work with
sexual assault survivors and the Women's Center and and
how that's evolved over the years I think would be an interesting addition
to it and and uh and I mentioned.
Claire already,
so
yeah,
um,
sure.